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Fantasy Faction => Fantasy Movies, Comic Books & Video Games => Topic started by: ScarletBea on April 22, 2019, 03:45:18 PM

Title: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on April 22, 2019, 03:45:18 PM
I've just finished watching episode 2, and there have been so many great scenes in these two...

I loved Brienne becoming a Ser!
Dany and Sansa chatting and almost friends, after the clash of last week... until the future of the North is mentioned.
All the conversations before the battle...
And the big revelation of Jon, of course - will that make a difference to the battle?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: tebakutis on April 25, 2019, 11:48:57 PM
I've loved the first two eps, particularly all the character development and interactions in Episode 2. This is our chance to say goodbye to these characters before they all die messily in ep 3. BTW, my writer sense is telling me ep 3 will be a doozy. Here's some random predictions:

- I think the Night King eats it at the end of episode 3, after his forces decimate the Winterfell defenders. The Night King is dead, but now they must face Cersei's fresh army with a significantly weakened and degraded force, which makes them desperate.

- At least 50% of our cast will die to defeat the Night King. Deaths I'd expect to see: Brienne (obvs), Pod, Beric, Jorah, Grey Worm, and probably Dolorous Ed.

- Unexpected death: Samwell. I *really* wouldn't be surprised if Samwell dies (likely while defending the smallfolk in the crypt, which the Night King's forces get into somehow). Why Samwell? First, GoT loves to do shocking deaths, and Samwell has always been "safe". Secondly (and this is the bigger one) Samwell is the *ONLY* character who has seen PROOF Jon is Aegon Targaryn (he got the books from the Citadel). Bran knows it, but Bran's only proof is his visions. So if Samwell dies, then all the sudden they have a MUCH larger opportunity to have Dany ignore Jon's claim to the throne (and drive a wedge to them because of it) because the only person with proof isn't around anymore. So yeah. Sam dies. We'll see if I'm right. :)

- Finally, Arya kills the Night King. Why? Because they have spent TWO eps where they've made a BIG DEAL out of the special, weird dragonglass weapon she asked Gendry to craft for her. No other characters get this treatment, but they have referenced Arya's weapon request (and Gendry building it) multiple times. This screams to me that this is the writer's room making sure the audience KNOWS this weapon exists, because it'll be how the Night King dies (and he won't expect Arya to do it). So that's my last prediction.

We'll see Sunday if any of these are right. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on April 25, 2019, 11:59:04 PM
I've loved the first two eps, particularly all the character development and interactions in Episode 2. This is our chance to say goodbye to these characters before they all die messily in ep 3. BTW, my writer sense is telling me ep 3 will be a doozy. Here's some random predictions:

- I think the Night King eats it at the end of episode 3, after his forces decimate the Winterfell defenders. The Night King is dead, but now they must face Cersei's fresh army with a significantly weakened and degraded force, which makes them desperate.

- At least 50% of our cast will die to defeat the Night King. Deaths I'd expect to see: Brienne (obvs), Pod, Beric, Jorah, Grey Worm, and probably Dolorous Ed.

- Unexpected death: Samwell. I *really* wouldn't be surprised if Samwell dies (likely while defending the smallfolk in the crypt, which the Night King's forces get into somehow). Why Samwell? First, GoT loves to do shocking deaths, and Samwell has always been "safe". Secondly (and this is the bigger one) Samwell is the *ONLY* character who has seen PROOF Jon is Aegon Targaryn (he got the books from the Citadel). Bran knows it, but Bran's only proof is his visions. So if Samwell dies, then all the sudden they have a MUCH larger opportunity to have Dany ignore Jon's claim to the throne (and drive a wedge to them because of it) because the only person with proof isn't around anymore. So yeah. Sam dies. We'll see if I'm right. :)

- Finally, Arya kills the Night King. Why? Because they have spent TWO eps where they've made a BIG DEAL out of the special, weird dragonglass weapon she asked Gendry to craft for her. No other characters get this treatment, but they have referenced Arya's weapon request (and Gendry building it) multiple times. This screams to me that this is the writer's room making sure the audience KNOWS this weapon exists, because it'll be how the Night King dies (and he won't expect Arya to do it). So that's my last prediction.

We'll see Sunday if any of these are right. :)

I disagree on one point

The central narrative from shot #1 hinges on the dead.  The night king needs to somehow be worked into the battle with cercei for the narrative to be wrapped up cleanly otherwise the battle for the iron throne will feel like a weird epilogue instead of a climax.  The night king can't die until the final ep!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: tebakutis on April 26, 2019, 04:36:56 PM
Do not click the tag until you've seen the episode. Seriously! DO NOT OPEN unless you've seen Episode 3 in its entirety!

Well, I got most of it right. :)

I didn't expect Brienne or Sam to live though! Good for them. Given all the chaos that unfolded, the body count was actually a lot smaller than I expected. Among the named characters, we lost Dolorous Ed, Beric, Jorah, Theon, Melisandre, and maybe Gendry (unclear) and ... did I miss anyone? I think they also lost one more dragon (since only one showed up at the end when Dany was mourning Jorah) but that still leaves one more.

And other than the obvious (Jon, Dany) it looks like Brienne, Jaime, Pod, Sansa, Tyrion, Bran, Sam, Varys, Davos, and even Grey Worm survived. I guess they want to do more with those characters in the final few eps.

But yup. The northern army is trashed, and now they have to face a fresh army of Lannisters, the Golden Company, and the Kraken's navy. That's going to be interesting...

Also the way my girl Anya did that knife catch and kidneyshotted the Night King to death was epic.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on April 29, 2019, 10:36:29 AM
Damn you for being mostly right Teb!!!

I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed. I mean the series is called "A song of fire and ice" not "a song of Circe and Jon Snow"

I was also a little disappointed by the battlle (and this season as a whole).  It didn't feel as well put together and exciting as Hardhome, and not as desperate as Battle of the Bastards. Keeping the white walkers out of it left no back and forth whatsoever, Bran just warged away for no damn reason and idk tbh I felt like it was the least climactic of all the battles so far. Lady Mormont being a badass was pretty cool, but the whole killing the giant thing seemed contrived, as did the library stuff.  A lot of it felt like cookie cutter thrills you might see on a ride or something.
Except for that last sequence where Jon is running through the castle watching everyone else barely surviving and of course the Arya vs. the Night King bit was awesome. So does that mean Arya is Azor Ahai? Mellisandre dying was also pointless and stupid. Grrrr.

Meanwhile it sounds like GRRM doesn't even know what the show's ending will be, and it might be that they made some departures from his notes on purpose (to help keep the book a surprise?).
https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/06/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-season-8-interview/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: tebakutis on April 29, 2019, 03:54:12 PM
Damn you for being mostly right Teb!!!

I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed. I mean the series is called "A song of fire and ice" not "a song of Circe and Jon Snow"

I was also a little disappointed by the battlle (and this season as a whole).  It didn't feel as well put together and exciting as Hardhome, and not as desperate as Battle of the Bastards. Keeping the white walkers out of it left no back and forth whatsoever, Bran just warged away for no damn reason and idk tbh I felt like it was the least climactic of all the battles so far. Lady Mormont being a badass was pretty cool, but the whole killing the giant thing seemed contrived, as did the library stuff.  A lot of it felt like cookie cutter thrills you might see on a ride or something.
Except for that last sequence where Jon is running through the castle watching everyone else barely surviving and of course the Arya vs. the Night King bit was awesome. So does that mean Arya is Azor Ahai? Mellisandre dying was also pointless and stupid. Grrrr.

Meanwhile it sounds like GRRM doesn't even know what the show's ending will be, and it might be that they made some departures from his notes on purpose (to help keep the book a surprise?).
https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/06/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-season-8-interview/

Mor spoilery talk!

Quote
I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed. I mean the series is called "A song of fire and ice" not "a song of Circe and Jon Snow"

I actually disagree with the thought that the series was about the Night King vs the living. Martin's goal has always struck me as wanting to focus on people, rather than the supernatural, and to veer away from the cliche. I think the focus on Cersei vs Jon vs Dany vs everyone has always been the goal, with the Night King as a side issue.

The army of "good" vs the supernatural big bad is at the center of the vast majority of fantasy novels (it has been since LotR) and, with the full disclosure that I've written my books with that in mind as well, it's can be cliche. To me, the Night King and his invading army of the dead was always another detail that caused tension in the conflict between the living characters (in addition to all the other horrific stuff she's done, Cersei left the north to rot and face the Night King alone) as opposed to the actual focus of the books.

I also like that, at least as it stands now, the "victory" at Winterfell, despite being massive, still accomplished very little to further the character's goals, which feels very grimdark. Yes, they killed the Night King and stopped his undead invasion, but they lost a huge amount of people and are very much on the ropes in regards to taking care of Cersei. Yes, main characters lived, but a ridiculous number of extras died ... they lost maybe 2/3s of the Unsullied, like the entirety of the Dothraki, and another dragon.

Worse yet, rather than cheering them as heroes, the people of the south (and the Lannisters) can now deny the Night King ever existed, so no accolades await the surviving northerners when they head south. I am 100% certain Cersei will now claim the Night King was a threat Jon Snow made up to try to scare the south into an alliance, and she is abundantly pleased that now she doesn't have to deal with it and they bloodied the hell out of her enemies.

So yeah, I wasn't surprised the Night King went down at all. Every giant event in Game of Thrones has seemed focused on making the conflict between the great houses more bitter, and the Night King's victory or survival would have actually eventually *united* the survivors, even if they didn't live.

George R. R. Martin doesn't do people being united. At least in these books, he seems to think it's far more interesting when people with complex motivations (beyond "Exterminate the living!") are at each other's throats. :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on April 29, 2019, 06:36:06 PM
ohmygawdohmygawdohmygawd!!!

I've just finished watching it now, I can't think coherently

When Arya killed the Night King I screamed, I actually screamed, and panted/shallow breathed. I didn't think I was the type of person who screams at these scenes. And pants! :-[ ;D ;D

And unlike JR I loved the episode, I think the balance of silence and action was extremely well done, and I loved the music towards the end, over the muffled sounds.

They could never make every single key character do something important in just one episode, so I understand the choices.

Although, yeah, I didn't get Bran's wargging to do whatever, then back. I do hope that he did something that we'll find out in future episodes.

And I got all emotional on Sansa and Tyrion's short interchange, both in words and in looks, and in Theon's last stand.

But Arya! Oh my sweet darling amazing super badass Arry ;D :-* ;D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on April 29, 2019, 07:09:32 PM
Tebakutis is a prophet

Major proofs that in the North they feed teenage girls Brave Pills and Hero Juice aside, I felt somewhat underwhelmed.

The two major reasons imo are that -

a) The battle didn't make much logical sense to me. It felt like a battle and a bunch of action scenes for the sake of a battle and a bunch of action scenes, rather than the logical conclusion of the characters' actions. For me, that made it kinda limp from the get go.

b) The Night King stuff... I dunno, I'm not sure he needed to be in the final episode, or that the War For The Dawn trumped the Game of Thrones, but... I think there should have been more to him than that. I'd have liked it to be obvious who Azor Azhai was before the Night King snuffed it. And I think they signaled his fairly incipient death after making it clear that either the good guys won or they all died about halfway through; I knew they weren't all dying, so he was either dying at the end or early on next episode. Kudos for making it so dramatic anyway but in general, it didn't satisfy.

And now I think about it... I do think he needed to be there until the final episode, or near it at least, because it feels a lot less tense and exciting for the plot being simply A) How do they defeat Cersei B) How do Jon and Dany resolve things. Having a third source of tension made things fun and uncertain. This? I think the writers have set themselves up for a hell of a task.

If I'd been writing it, I'd have had an epic miserable retreat from Winterfell, with Dany's and Jon's armies splitting after an epic argument... but then maybe you can't wrap that up in 3 more episodes[/quote]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on April 30, 2019, 03:30:19 AM
Tebakutis is a prophet

Major proofs that in the North they feed teenage girls Brave Pills and Hero Juice aside, I felt somewhat underwhelmed.

The two major reasons imo are that -

a) The battle didn't make much logical sense to me. It felt like a battle and a bunch of action scenes for the sake of a battle and a bunch of action scenes, rather than the logical conclusion of the characters' actions. For me, that made it kinda limp from the get go.

b) The Night King stuff... I dunno, I'm not sure he needed to be in the final episode, or that the War For The Dawn trumped the Game of Thrones, but... I think there should have been more to him than that. I'd have liked it to be obvious who Azor Azhai was before the Night King snuffed it. And I think they signaled his fairly incipient death after making it clear that either the good guys won or they all died about halfway through; I knew they weren't all dying, so he was either dying at the end or early on next episode. Kudos for making it so dramatic anyway but in general, it didn't satisfy.

And now I think about it... I do think he needed to be there until the final episode, or near it at least, because it feels a lot less tense and exciting for the plot being simply A) How do they defeat Cersei B) How do Jon and Dany resolve things. Having a third source of tension made things fun and uncertain. This? I think the writers have set themselves up for a hell of a task.

If I'd been writing it, I'd have had an epic miserable retreat from Winterfell, with Dany's and Jon's armies splitting after an epic argument... but then maybe you can't wrap that up in 3 more episodes
[/quote]

I'm with Peat on this one. That said, Scarlet and Teb, I might have shouted at the screen a bit in that final moment too :)  Loved the Sansa and Tyrion scene too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on April 30, 2019, 06:37:03 AM
PS--

Here's how I would have done it.

* Cercei agrees to the truce but secretly prepares for war, but she doesn't tell her brother Jaime.
* When Bran reveals that the Night King is after him, Tyrion suggests sending him to Kings Landing. Despite Bran's protests Jon Snow agrees and he gets shipped off with Clegane and Sam.
* There is a crazy battle to defend Winterfell with a ton of dead and several white walkers and snow spiders, but no night king.  They just barely defend the castle, taking out a white walker or two (and maybe the dragon), but the army of the dead continues south.
* There's a race to reach Kings Landing, the journeys not safe, the dead are chasing them, and Dany and Jon's armies are also in pursuit hoping to find the night king
* Bran, Sam and the Hound arrive.  Cercei imprisons Sam, tortures him for information about the dead, and once she discovers that whats-his-face had sort of a peace agreement by sending babies to the white walkers, she decides she has to give Bran to the night king. She also prepares to burn huge portions of kings landing with the people still living in it by stashing kegs of wildfire everywhere.
* Bran is strapped down somewhere and there's a big battle to get to him with people fighting Lannister soldiers, we get Cleganebowl as the Hound tries to free him, Arya comes out of her disguise to save the Hound, but then Clegane gets killed by the night king anyway. In king's landing, the battle with the dead doesn't go well, and Jaime kills Circei to keep her from murdering half of king's landing.  In the end Bran kills the night king.  Or maybe Arya could still do it b/c she did such a good job of it in the show... but I think having Bran do it would give an extra reversal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: The Gem Cutter on May 01, 2019, 01:45:12 PM
If only the show's creators were given the reins on Star Wars movies, it would be amazing!!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on May 03, 2019, 08:36:13 AM
Have to agree with Bradley's and Peat's opinions on this one. The battle is cinematically amazing, but
plot twise, not as great as the earlier battles for sure, whether The Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, or even The Blackwater.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: JMack on May 03, 2019, 10:29:01 AM
So, some appointment some disappointment (that crammed works, right?). But now we all march south, right?

Or do we?

Why would Sansa go south in the next episodes? Not for any good reason I can see, except not trusting Dany. Who stays to rebuild Winterfell? Arya? Not damn likely.

So,’what if Jon, Dany, Arya, and assorted hangers on go south, while Sansa stays... but, the Iron Fleet comes calling?

Feels like we need predictions!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Zairoq on May 03, 2019, 09:31:50 PM
Ep 3 was intense for sure, i was really enjoying it until the Arya moment. When that happened I was flabbergasted and kept shouting "WHAT" at the screen ;D But tbh i feel like all that hype since the very first episode was deflated in an unsatisfying way. I was expecting a twist where Bran is controlling the NK or something.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Elfy on May 04, 2019, 02:11:49 AM
So, some appointment some disappointment (that crammed works, right?). But now we all march south, right?

Or do we?

Why would Sansa go south in the next episodes? Not for any good reason I can see, except not trusting Dany. Who stays to rebuild Winterfell? Arya? Not damn likely.

So,’what if Jon, Dany, Arya, and assorted hangers on go south, while Sansa stays... but, the Iron Fleet comes calling?

Feels like we need predictions!
Agree with that. Nit everyone can go south. My own prediction is that the Golden Company will turn and wind up being on Dany’s side. I think they originate from Essos and Daario has a connection with them, although at this point i’m Niw starting to confuse the books with the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 06, 2019, 11:30:57 AM
So yeah this basically sums up my feelings about this season:


(https://preview.redd.it/89b78gma5iw21.gif?format=mp4&s=67a1211bfd36dd619a782c716b1a6b73eee6dddf)

https://preview.redd.it/89b78gma5iw21.gif?format=mp4&s=67a1211bfd36dd619a782c716b1a6b73eee6dddf


CLICK ON THE LINK ABOVE TO WATCH THIS GIF ^^^^^^^^^

(https://external-preview.redd.it/r2ZEvP8tIQsi45wnsWKNRDNqoygSBDQmssVSeOXfxc0.jpg?auto=webp&s=0e88e555354f4bb41e414e8e80d395364ef7c05c)
https://external-preview.redd.it/r2ZEvP8tIQsi45wnsWKNRDNqoygSBDQmssVSeOXfxc0.jpg?auto=webp&s=0e88e555354f4bb41e414e8e80d395364ef7c05c

AND CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW TO WATCH THIS VID vvvvvv
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bl2z98/kit_harrington_warned_us/



Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on May 06, 2019, 09:55:00 PM
I watched number 4 and

it felt disjointed and clunky!
Secrets? What are they? No one can keep a secret, for crying out loud!
And Brienne would never change so much to be crying at Jaime leaving, that's just not her personality!
How did they manage to get Missandei, and know how important she was?
And are we at the point of "a man will be better at the job"? Really?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Jake Baelish on May 07, 2019, 04:49:09 AM
I watched number 4 and

it felt disjointed and clunky!
Secrets? What are they? No one can keep a secret, for crying out loud!
And Brienne would never change so much to be crying at Jaime leaving, that's just not her personality!
How did they manage to get Missandei, and know how important she was?
And are we at the point of "a man will be better at the job"? Really?

From a passive 'viewer who just wants to be entertained' stand point - this season has been great.

But some things seem pretty inane:

-WTF was that pointless Dothraki death charge in Ep3? No sense in that attack at all - especially if it was just going to trigger Danny so easily...

-Also, despite being impulsive, insane and arguably idiotic in some cases; Cersei and Euron seem to have (with their failed maester ally) come up with the most effective, destructive, lethal weapon in thousands of years, in a seemingly VERY short space of time; a bigger version of a common weapon...

Those giant crossbows - amazing no one came up with them before when the Greyjoys were tearing up the coasts and dragons kept 7 kept seven kingdoms in toe. Considering they can wipe out ships in no time, penetrate dragon skin as if it were paper AND, apparently, be SO EASY to use that medieval men with NO experience of surface to air combat can land 2-3 perfect hits without missing once - WTF did they practice on?

All a little bit too convenient for plot purposes imo. As was Missandei's capture.

Still, from a purely passive pov, it remains thoroughly enjoyable  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 07, 2019, 03:28:15 PM
I watched number 4 and

it felt disjointed and clunky!
Secrets? What are they? No one can keep a secret, for crying out loud!
And Brienne would never change so much to be crying at Jaime leaving, that's just not her personality!
How did they manage to get Missandei, and know how important she was?
And are we at the point of "a man will be better at the job"? Really?

Huh. That was my favourite so far. I liked the drama!

Few thoughts...

I personally found it pretty realistic that if you build yourself to be super resilient emotionally and super self-sufficient and then let someone in, it's going to hurt like hell if they leave because coping with that loss of trust is going to be a fairly novel experience. Particularly there and then on the spot. I might carp if Brienne becomes weak and useless for the rest of the show due to this, but the show of emotion made sense to me.

As for cocks and crowns... I think that a story that's tried to look at the grimier aspects of medieval life and power *has* to confront the implicit sexism in kingship. The conversation, with one arguing it didn't matter and the other that it did, was what I wanted. If the King ends up King just because he has a cock that would suck, but that's a way down the road.

I think that if there's something I'm disappointed about in the seeming Jon-Dany choice, and that I think does feel old and tired and a bit sexist, is that we hear a lot about Dany's faults and little about Jon's. And lets not beat around the bush - I think Dany's temper and unwavering belief in her divine right would probably make her a bad queen, but Jon's idiocy and unbending honour would make him a bad king. And he's just as bad at not taking advice. Sansa and Tyrion for the Iron Throne!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saraband on May 07, 2019, 05:02:46 PM
This season cements the transformation from an interesting TV show into a major hollywood blockbuster movie. Intelligent characters are now dumb, there's no sense of strategy, plot points that have been with us since day one are neatly resolved in a nonsensical battle (White Walkers), and shock value and cinematic flair seemed to have become the priority.

Also, about episode 4

Is Daenerys blind now, too? She's flying high up in the air, on a clear day, and doesn't see dozens of enemy ships because a few of them were slightly behind a rock? It was such a ludicrously stupid way of killing a dragon, I'd rather they had it killed at the battle of Winterfell. This way, though, was just a nonsensical shock surprise to get our emotions high by the end.
The show has become so poorly written, I'm just watching it now because of all the years I've remained committed, as well as my appreciation for the source material.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: The Gem Cutter on May 08, 2019, 06:24:34 AM
Loved everything so far. A lot. And I think most of the faults are the result of taking what should have been an extra long season and cramming it into an even shorter one. The prophecies and plot lines we're missing are on the cutting room floor, because you can't shove a size 10 foot in a size 3 shoe. My 2 cents.
As for the battle, it was perfect in terms of strategy and realism, and the faults we see as such are seen that way because they didn't have enough time for exposition dialogue. Siege engines up front, the charge, all of it actually makes great sense, in the context of not knowing what to expect. They had to be ready for multiple kinds of enemy plans, and sadly, the enemy was very smart and the worst thing you can have in an enemy - patient and careful with his most devastating weapon. I do wish the white-walkers had been engaged, but frankly, the enemy's strategy was so successful they were overkill.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 08, 2019, 07:13:46 AM
Is it me or is it just obvious that after they didn't have complete books by George RR to build their scripts on, the series went stupid?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on May 08, 2019, 08:04:07 AM
Is it me or is it just obvious that after they didn't have complete books by George RR to build their scripts on, the series went stupid?
I wouldn't be that harsh, but in my mind things went like this:

D&D sit with GRRM
D&D: "So, where do you see the story going?"
GRRM: "Oh, you know, X does this, Y is actually linked to W, then Z happens and boom! You can flesh out the rest"

D&D go home to write the episodes
D1: "So how was it?"
D2: "X does this, Y is actually linked to W, then Z happens and boom"
D1: "Hmmm right, anything missing? He mentioned something about fleshing out..."
D2: "Nah, this is enough. We've got boom"

 ;D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: CameronJohnston on May 08, 2019, 03:12:26 PM
I'm enjoying it but it is a bit stupid and it does feel very rushed trying to crowbar it all in, to the detriment of some character interactions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: tebakutis on May 08, 2019, 11:21:00 PM
I'm enjoying it but it is a bit stupid and it does feel very rushed trying to crowbar it all in, to the detriment of some character interactions.

This.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 09, 2019, 01:34:43 AM
It is so rushed. But then they're trying to do a suitable ending to a gigantic storyline, designed to use the more comprehensive nature of literature/do all the crazy things GRRM couldn't do as a screenwriter/showcase the chaotic effects of a power vacuum. I feel a bit of sympathy is reasonable... although how much sympathy depends on whose dumb idea only 6 episodes was. If that was forced on them, then yeah, sympathy. If they volunteered for it... bad!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: The Gem Cutter on May 09, 2019, 05:14:05 AM
They should have turned to the fandom with a poll: "For $3 extra on your HBO bill for the next 4 months, we can do 10 episodes instead of 6 - what do you say?" I'd have paid and I'd have paid more than that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: CameronJohnston on May 09, 2019, 08:48:09 AM
Seems to me like they were plotting out their set budget and decided to sacrifice episodes in order to put more funds into cgi and expensive explody burning battle scenes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saraband on May 09, 2019, 09:43:11 AM
I certainly agreed with the rushed bit, but I think that explains part of the problem, like being back to teleporting and the quick jump between plot points. The dumbing down of characters, however? That's writing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 09, 2019, 12:06:35 PM
I certainly agreed with the rushed bit, but I think that explains part of the problem, like being back to teleporting and the quick jump between plot points. The dumbing down of characters, however? That's writing.

Which characters do you think they dumbed down?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saraband on May 09, 2019, 05:07:08 PM
Whoever was involved in planning the Battle for Winterfell, for a start. I cannot imagine Jon Snow, Tyrion, Greyworm, Jorah or almost anyone in that room saying: "We don't know exactly what to expect, so let's open with a blind kamikaze Dothraki charge. Also, artillery on the walls? That's too easy, we need a bit of adrenaline, so put them out front and send a single salvo after our cavalry is already charging to its death."

Again, no one batting an eye-lid about getting stuffed in a crypt full of dead people, when all the people I know were like "something's going to happen in the crypt" prior to the episode. Jon and others know the White Walkers bring dead people back to life.

Last episode, given what Cersei's done, conducting "diplomatic" talks in front of a city with various ballistae pointing at you, like everyone's expecting Cersei to respect any rules. I mean, she has the upper hand through that whole exchange, there's no reason for her not to take that chance, since Daenerys and those around her could only run away at that point, being too few to fight. I understand the whole thing was to provoke Daenerys into battle, but Cersei is as smart as she is vile. If she had them in her hand, like she did with the sparrow and all the others, she would've used the opportunity.

There's a succession of small things which ignore Tyrion's intellect from previous seasons, just to make sure that their stupidity suits a narrative of putting Daenerys against the wall to see if she truly becomes mad when cornered, which seems to be the build up so far (in which she'll either make a sacrifice for the sake of everyone, or go fully mental.)

These may be irrelevant details to some, I understand that. The thing to me is that the show was brilliant because of how well some of the details were flashed out, how it all made sense if you kept each characters motivations in mind. Now? It feels like everything is just happening in order to fulfill plot points. Characters serving a plot, in a story that was interesting because of the complex characters (to me).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 10, 2019, 05:18:41 AM
The internal consistency needed to underpin a story's logic is never an irrelevant detail; I was just curious as to which elements you were looking at.

I feel like I agree with most of it except to note that Jon Snow seems to spend most of the show being an idiot so I can believe him continuing to be one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on May 13, 2019, 08:11:48 PM
Oooh they did the cardinal sin of shouting "fire" to loose the arrows! Oooh bad boys!!
 ;D

I didn't like it, sorry.
I don't know if it was their purpose, but
they managed to destroy all strong women of the series, they reduced them to cliches and fixed roles. Emotions. My opinion.
Also, the destruction of the city in this scale was a lazy plot, an easy way out.
I'm really disappointed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 13, 2019, 11:13:27 PM
I'm torn. I liked it in its own right and as an obvious culmination of where they've been heading for the last series, but in terms of the larger arc, it feels so rushed and forced. With regards to what Bea said, and apologies if it sounds dismissive of those particular disappointments, everything feels like cliches now. It is an unfortunate end for something that took giant swings at those cliches and let events play out at their own pace. The levels of fan discontent are always going to be high when the manner of a story changes so late.

A few more specific points

Being that guy who complains about combat realism gets old but the way that Dany's dragons went from being the Iron Fleet's bitches to all of a sudden destroying the entire thing was not good storytelling.

I'm not sure how I feel about Dany's descent into Mad Tyrant status, but I did think the moment where it was clear she'd won but she was ready to keep on destroying was done well. Good dramatic moment.

Arya's arc might by my favourite thing about the show right now; hopefully her decision that there's more to life than revenge has some meaning in the next episode. The Old Gods knows somebody needs to bring some sanity to the party right now.

I thought Jaime would go out in sacrifice, but I didn't think he'd go out protecting her. Ach well.

Where's Bronn?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: The Gem Cutter on May 14, 2019, 01:43:42 AM
Have to disagree with you Bea.

There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Jake Baelish on May 14, 2019, 06:37:44 AM
I thought the episode in itself was REALLY good (aside from the sudden uselessness of the Iron Fleet and scorpions). The ends for certain characters were done well mostly (even if I had to juggle with not being disappointed they weren't exactly how I had hoped/imagined).

But, I felt this episode more than any other was missing a whole episode of build up immediately prior that would've justified some bizarre character decisions that don't sit well. I was so baffled that I came up with how I'd personally fix it with an Episode 4.5.

Missandei isn’t killed at the end of Ep4, but is captured. Rhaegal is killed by Euron (though maybe missing a few shots...), the episode ends.

New Ep5 begins with Dany distraught over death of another of her ‘children’, near inconsolable, she is ready to lash out and burn the Red Keep to nothing. Varys and Tyrion advise strongly against it, claiming Dany should remain calm for Missandei (and add that Missandei would not wish her to do anything extreme either). Dany continues a downward spiral throughout the episode.

Varys meets Jon and tells him his wishes (in a quiet room, not out on the beach in front of everyone), but Jon rejects as he does.

Tyrion, Jon and Varys continue to push for negotiation to avoid the devastation of war. And to try to secure Missandei’s safety. Dany, very reluctantly, acquiesces.

Dany and company (now with Jon) meet Cersei at the gate to King’s Landing and events go much as they did in the show (so rather than 2 sudden tragedies and 10 mins later a massacre of epic proportions, we have half an episode of attempting to deal with Rhaegal’s death, trying the ‘right thing’ then seeing her best friend murdered – and we’ll have ‘felt’ that conflict and had time to see it play out).

Dany is furious. At Dragonstone she storms out leaving Tyrion, Varys and Jon alone. Varys departs shortly after. Tyrion and Jon discuss Varys’ talk of treason. Jon tells Tyrion if he doesn’t tell Dany, then he will tell her himself (this negates the idiocy of Tyrion ratting out Varys knowing Dany is not mentally stable - Jon is fond of Tyrion but has no reason to trust Varys, so he'd be doing this for Tyrion).

Tyrion sadly informs Dany of Varys’ actions. She reacts accordingly.

We see Jaime get taken prisoner by unsullied soldiers (so it isn’t just a convenient turn up next episode).

Jon tries to comfort Dany and this scene goes much as it did in actual Ep5. The episode ends with Dany claiming it will have to be fear.

The Battle of King’s Landing episode then proceeds much as it did. Only now we’ve seen Dany’s complete psychological breakdown and it isn’t such a SUDDEN departure from the ‘Mhysa’ the ‘Breaker of Chains’. Some might think it makes it too obvious – but surely most have known the Mad Queen was on the cards from Season 4 at the latest if not earlier. And the actual torching of all the city would be more justifiable if the seeds had been laid more carefully and been allowed to breathe; I think the act of destroying EVERYTHING would also be shocking regardless.

I actually have no issue with Dany's arc and her become the series super-villain, it just hit sonic speed this season and it isn't that believable.

All a bit futile and I clearly have too much time on my hands at the moment, but I enjoyed typing that. Does anyone else see the need for something like this here more than ever?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Elfy on May 14, 2019, 06:47:30 AM
Have to disagree with you Bea.

There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

There's a couple of things about Drogon's success that not many people have picked up on. He's the biggest, strongest, fastest of Dany's dragons. He's her favourite, and she rides him into battle. Rhaegal had no rider when he was shot. Drogon's evaded the scorpion bolts before, too.

As for Dany's 'change' I saw that a long way out, books as well as show.

Ever since she got the dragons and they proved to be an effective weapon, she's used them that way. Whenever she doesn't get what she wants, she just burns it down. She's been isolated and lost since she went to Westeros. She doesn't feel like a Westerosi, she was born and raised in Essos. She bore the Westerosi, especially the southerners, no love. These people killed her father and her brother, and then took her birthright. They forced her and her brother to beg for a living. They didn't welcome her as a saviour or a returning monarch. They gave credit to one of their own for things that she had paid a major part in. She now trusts only Drogon and Grey Worm. Westeros took everything else from her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on May 14, 2019, 07:59:46 AM
I understand your points, where you're coming from....

However for me it just feels too disjointed from the previous seasons, the previous plots. It's not even "I don't believe they would act like that" on its own, because I think that with a little more story those acts would be justified.
It's like reading a 5-page summary of a 500-page book, where just the critical/action/shocking elements of the plot are described.

If the series had always been like this I wouldn't even mind... it's the change that I'm having trouble accepting.

(and I'm one of the few who didn't think that the Lost ending was bad!)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 14, 2019, 12:33:35 PM
Have to disagree with you Bea.

There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

Yara and Sansa aren't on screen; Arya is a poster girl for the "Women must give up their femininity to be strong" trope. I get why women would be disappointed about where they've gone with this, even if the path is logical. I'm somewhat disappointed myself, even if I personally found it clear that Dany was going to be a mad queen from the start of this season.

I also make Bea very right about the speed with which she's gone from ruthless tyrant to genocidal madwoman. Her trusted advisers may no longer be there to talk her out of things, but they were talking her out of excessive brutality against the powerful opposing her, not indulging in collateral damage in an already won battle. And if she's gone berserk, why not just go straight to Cersei after she took out the static targets?

Speaking of which - it makes sense to me that she'd make relatively short work of a fleet at anchor, just not that the ballistas which were so accurate that they took out a dragon with three arcing shots (I assume arcing or the dragons would have seen them first) suddenly become Storm Trooper level of effective. It doesn't follow internal consistency to me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saraband on May 14, 2019, 03:57:07 PM
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Elfy on May 14, 2019, 10:41:27 PM
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
I actually think its the opposite of fan fiction. Fan fiction is what will change what happened in the show, because that's largely what fan fiction does, when fans don't get the endings they wanted they write their own.
The show, whether people like it or not, is giving the audience the ending as imagined by GRRM. There have been a few changes (Sansa's arc is one), but most of the really big things are what GRRM told D&D would happen. I could see a lot of this going this way from the books. People also tend to have short memories about the reaction to the last 2 books of the series. They were not favourable. I personally didn't mind Dance, but Feast was an awful mess that Dance couldn't fix.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 15, 2019, 02:42:39 AM
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
I actually think its the opposite of fan fiction. Fan fiction is what will change what happened in the show, because that's largely what fan fiction does, when fans don't get the endings they wanted they write their own.
The show, whether people like it or not, is giving the audience the ending as imagined by GRRM. There have been a few changes (Sansa's arc is one), but most of the really big things are what GRRM told D&D would happen. I could see a lot of this going this way from the books. People also tend to have short memories about the reaction to the last 2 books of the series. They were not favourable. I personally didn't mind Dance, but Feast was an awful mess that Dance couldn't fix.

@Elfy that might have been true for a couple of things in earlier seasons (Hodors story) but they are well beyond GRRM's notes and GRRM has said a long while ago that he has no idea how the television series will end. In earlier seasons he even wrote an episode or two but GRRM had no involvement in S8, and I'm not sure what his level of involvement was in S7 but he seems to have tapped out of the show some time ago

I also think S8 has some basic storytelling faux pas that it's highly unlikely a seasoned storyteller would make
killing the Night King before the climax, building character arcs only to randomly reverse them 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 15, 2019, 02:53:18 AM
(and I'm one of the few who didn't think that the Lost ending was bad!)

You're dead to me.

(jk)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: The Gem Cutter on May 15, 2019, 06:28:55 AM
Have to disagree with you Bea.

There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

Yara and Sansa aren't on screen; Arya is a poster girl for the "Women must give up their femininity to be strong" trope. I get why women would be disappointed about where they've gone with this, even if the path is logical. I'm somewhat disappointed myself, even if I personally found it clear that Dany was going to be a mad queen from the start of this season.

I also make Bea very right about the speed with which she's gone from ruthless tyrant to genocidal madwoman. Her trusted advisers may no longer be there to talk her out of things, but they were talking her out of excessive brutality against the powerful opposing her, not indulging in collateral damage in an already won battle. And if she's gone berserk, why not just go straight to Cersei after she took out the static targets?

Speaking of which - it makes sense to me that she'd make relatively short work of a fleet at anchor, just not that the ballistas which were so accurate that they took out a dragon with three arcing shots (I assume arcing or the dragons would have seen them first) suddenly become Storm Trooper level of effective. It doesn't follow internal consistency to me.
Regarding ballistas and scorpions vs. dragons, with all primitive ranged weapons up to the mid-1800s, there is a huge difference in effectiveness between volley fire and aimed shots. The difference is even more pronounced on moving targets, which typically only move in 2 dimensions. Flying targets move in three. Similarly, an ambush of volley fire (a tactic still used against aerial targets today) is even more effective. But once the flyer knows where the weapons are, they're doomed. Static things die. Hence the wheels on almost every anti-air platform dating back to the 1940s.

Don't get me wrong, the shock of the scene was not worth the drama that could have been developed. I wouldn't call it excellent storytelling. But throughout the series, we have seen Tywin's comment of Aegon "changing the rules" played out over and over. The Night King changed the rules. Robb Stark did. Then the Lannisters did by shifting from warfare to treachery. The dragons changed the rules, then scorpions did, then Denarys read some history and discovered the counter for them, and it worked, just as it did in Westeros' history. So yes, some apparent inconsistency - that is actually just surprising.

People keep looking at this series and misapplying medieval warfare. "Why would you not have your troops INSIDE the walls?" has been applied to both Winterfell and King's Landing. The not-that-complicated answer:  DRAGONS and the need to be able to fix and finish them by forcing the dragon-rider to either not support the main effort or risk the loss of the dragon. Denarys won by realizing that destroying the scorpions WAS the main effort. I don't know why she bothered with the fleet at all, actually.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Elfy on May 15, 2019, 07:13:22 AM
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
I actually think its the opposite of fan fiction. Fan fiction is what will change what happened in the show, because that's largely what fan fiction does, when fans don't get the endings they wanted they write their own.
The show, whether people like it or not, is giving the audience the ending as imagined by GRRM. There have been a few changes (Sansa's arc is one), but most of the really big things are what GRRM told D&D would happen. I could see a lot of this going this way from the books. People also tend to have short memories about the reaction to the last 2 books of the series. They were not favourable. I personally didn't mind Dance, but Feast was an awful mess that Dance couldn't fix.

@Elfy that might have been true for a couple of things in earlier seasons (Hodors story) but they are well beyond GRRM's notes and GRRM has said a long while ago that he has no idea how the television series will end. In earlier seasons he even wrote an episode or two but GRRM had no involvement in S8, and I'm not sure what his level of involvement was in S7 but he seems to have tapped out of the show some time ago

I also think S8 has some basic storytelling faux pas that it's highly unlikely a seasoned storyteller would make
killing the Night King before the climax, building character arcs only to randomly reverse them 
George was contracted to write an episode a season in the earlier seasons, but that ended when it became clear that the show would outstrip the books. He also signed a contract early on in the piece to give the showrunners the outline of what was going to happen in the event that he couldn't keep pace with the show. He's known how the books, and I assume the show, would end from the beginning. I once attended a con he was at and he spoke about the process of writing the books and why 5 took so long. He was in Melbourne at the time so he explained it like this. For him writing the series is like taking a road trip from Melbourne to Perth without a detailed map. So he knows where he's started and he knows where he'll wind up, but he's going to encounter a few unforeseen obstacles along the way, everything from book 3 has been an unforeseen obstacle, but he always knew what the final destination would be. He also doesn't do happy endings. He's said all along that it will be at best a bittersweet ending. He also doesn't really care what people think about his choices as to what he does with characters. They're his characters, his story, so if other people don't like it, that's just tough.

Having said that I think the showrunners have done the show a disservice in electing to cram everything into a much shorter season. They were offered longer and given the marketing juggernaut the show has become, they would have been given a commensurate budget to do that justice, but they turned it down. The comments of one of them indicated that they kind of checked out a while back, I think, like George, the whole process has worn them down and burned them out and they just wanted to be done with it.

Sadly big shows like this don't seem to do satisfying endings: Lost, Battlestar Galactica, I'm in the minority, but I don't think the ending of Breaking Bad was particularly good, The Sopranos, Deadwood, even Rome, although that was largely caused by circumstances beyond their control.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 15, 2019, 07:26:10 AM
GRRM in an interview before the start of S8 explicitly said that he had no idea how the show was going to end.  I really don't think he would throw away character development like that, and he can reach a bittersweet ending without it being utterly stupid, which this ending was.  I don't care if all of them died or how tragic the ending might be, it has to make some sense within the internal logic of the story, and this just doesn't, not just because there's not enough time, because there's absolutely nothing to precipitate the character changes, plus theres nooooo way he's gonna have the battle of winterfell occur at that time in the story in that way.  I give him way more credit than that.  A twist requires a set-up not a "WTF was that?"

LOST didn't have a terrible ending because it was big, it had an unsatisfying ending because it was run by JJ Abrams.  It came out that they had absolutely no idea where they were going with the show and just made the ending up on the spot, and it shows.  JJ Abrams whole thing is "wouldn't it be weird if..." there's a polar bear in the jungle! There's the numbers!  Misleading people into thinking there's something deep going on when he's really just generating intrigue with no punch line.  None of his stuff makes any damn sense.

BSG was great until the last half of the last season, when they too couldn't figure out how to tie up all their lost threads.  What was the deal with Starbuck returning?  Do the writers even know?  But it wasn't even a fraction as god-awful as LOST. 

I can't comment on the other shows b/c I didn't see them.  But I think it really comes down to two things: Pantsing doesn't really work for mysteries that span years of TV seasons.  and proper plotting has to also plot character transformations and make sense within the world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 15, 2019, 12:51:17 PM
Have to disagree with you Bea.

There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

Yara and Sansa aren't on screen; Arya is a poster girl for the "Women must give up their femininity to be strong" trope. I get why women would be disappointed about where they've gone with this, even if the path is logical. I'm somewhat disappointed myself, even if I personally found it clear that Dany was going to be a mad queen from the start of this season.

I also make Bea very right about the speed with which she's gone from ruthless tyrant to genocidal madwoman. Her trusted advisers may no longer be there to talk her out of things, but they were talking her out of excessive brutality against the powerful opposing her, not indulging in collateral damage in an already won battle. And if she's gone berserk, why not just go straight to Cersei after she took out the static targets?

Speaking of which - it makes sense to me that she'd make relatively short work of a fleet at anchor, just not that the ballistas which were so accurate that they took out a dragon with three arcing shots (I assume arcing or the dragons would have seen them first) suddenly become Storm Trooper level of effective. It doesn't follow internal consistency to me.
Regarding ballistas and scorpions vs. dragons, with all primitive ranged weapons up to the mid-1800s, there is a huge difference in effectiveness between volley fire and aimed shots. The difference is even more pronounced on moving targets, which typically only move in 2 dimensions. Flying targets move in three. Similarly, an ambush of volley fire (a tactic still used against aerial targets today) is even more effective. But once the flyer knows where the weapons are, they're doomed. Static things die. Hence the wheels on almost every anti-air platform dating back to the 1940s.

Don't get me wrong, the shock of the scene was not worth the drama that could have been developed. I wouldn't call it excellent storytelling. But throughout the series, we have seen Tywin's comment of Aegon "changing the rules" played out over and over. The Night King changed the rules. Robb Stark did. Then the Lannisters did by shifting from warfare to treachery. The dragons changed the rules, then scorpions did, then Denarys read some history and discovered the counter for them, and it worked, just as it did in Westeros' history. So yes, some apparent inconsistency - that is actually just surprising.

People keep looking at this series and misapplying medieval warfare. "Why would you not have your troops INSIDE the walls?" has been applied to both Winterfell and King's Landing. The not-that-complicated answer:  DRAGONS and the need to be able to fix and finish them by forcing the dragon-rider to either not support the main effort or risk the loss of the dragon. Denarys won by realizing that destroying the scorpions WAS the main effort. I don't know why she bothered with the fleet at all, actually.

I've now seen the odd battle tactics explained as both the result of trying to apply Medieval Tactical Thinking vs an enemy they don't know, and as Leaving Behind Medieval Tactical Thinking vs a new enemy.

That merely reinforces my belief that the writers simply haven't explained or made clear what is happening via the internal logic of the story, which is the most important logic anyway. It is simply one big rorshach test.

Also I'm well aware of the efficacy of volley fire vs single aimed shots, which is why the internal logic is all the more borked by three single shots at extreme range being far, far more effective than a volley against a target at close range.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Brand J Alexander on May 15, 2019, 04:03:56 PM
Just watched the most recent episode last night. First and foremost, why does Cersei get such a good death? She's beheaded, burned and tortured people, yet she is allowed to die in the arms of the man she loves. Dany goes insane and Cersei gets an emotional death while being comforted, WTH? They actually diminished Jaime's death and character with that scene while improving hers. They wanted you to feel sympathy for her. I don't want sympathy I want a fitting death. Or even better permanent imprisonment with the nuns. I would have accepted Cersei marrying the Night King raising her children from the grave and ruling the 7 kingdoms as the undead high queen more than her getting a death that good.

Clegane bowl I think was done well. I don't understand how the writers saw the clear path to his story's end but completely missed the mark on so many others.

I'm mostly just watching to finish the story now. The Battle for Winterfell left me completely turned off by the story shift. Although, it made me understand why HBO called it Game of Thrones and not A Song of Ice and Fire. They didn't want the magic of ice and fire. They wanted the reality tv show drama at the core. They just used the other stuff as the backdrop and discarded it as soon as they could to move on to Big Brother King's Landing.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 16, 2019, 01:49:58 AM
I can't really watch it from here in the Amazon, I'm just sort of watching the end of the season through hilarious internet memes:


(https://i.redd.it/bqnS60IhV2hEGOMkjenQfQxyMubiKwLlCHeK15zCjnY.jpg)

(https://i-cdn.embed.ly/1/display?key=fd92ebbc52fc43fb98f69e50e7893c13&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fil2rmkhq7zx21.jpg)

(https://i.redd.it/fb39dtc94dy21.jpg)

(https://i-cdn.embed.ly/1/display?key=fd92ebbc52fc43fb98f69e50e7893c13&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F6x2z6cmtczx21.png)

(https://i-cdn.embed.ly/1/display?key=fd92ebbc52fc43fb98f69e50e7893c13&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F7medjzk62wx21.jpg)

(https://i.redd.it/gov70hf1ncy21.png)

(https://preview.redd.it/r0g1u23qacy21.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=cb59a4f347de45175649e5789942e741100eff66)

(https://preview.redd.it/tkqm1tq66fy21.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=fdec61e684de8fa961bc75d431223a4572513cf9)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 16, 2019, 01:55:09 AM
I need to find a good photoshopper to help me with getting the internet to recognise the fact that Euron is in fact Bennett from Commando. Except less interested in man-man love.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Neveesandeh on May 19, 2019, 10:34:19 AM
I never really got into the show because I was too much of a book purist, but I've been reading summaries to keep track of what happens just out of interest. It's pretty obvious D&D aren't the writers George is, and even George has been struggling with the later books. He writes fantastic characters but his plotting can be very messy and I have a feeling that if 'A Dream of Spring' ever comes out the ending won't be all that great.

That said, I'm sure it will be better than whatever we see tonight.

I was never a fan of 'Game of Thrones' but it brought fantasy into the mainstream and we got a lot of fantasy adaptations getting greenlit because of it, so I'll always be grateful to it for that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 19, 2019, 01:18:50 PM
It's pretty obvious D&D aren't the writers George is,

Ok my last case against this sentiment: you can almost see exactly where D&D diverged in the writing scene by scene early on then episode by episode and now entire season.

1) Brans storyline
2) Character teleportation
3) Maggy the Frog's prophecy
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Neveesandeh on May 19, 2019, 06:13:15 PM
So I found a clip of the burning of King's Landing on youtube and... wow. I mean, I know it kind of came out of nowhere and probably would have benefitted from coming after a few more episodes but it's an amazing scene. It's just so brutal.

Got to feel sorry for all those people who named their kids after Daenerys, though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 20, 2019, 11:02:32 AM
Stayed up to watch it.

Nice dramatic start. All set up for big drama and...

Then skip to vanilla ending.

It was alright I guess, but could have been so much more
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on May 20, 2019, 08:51:15 PM
^ Yep, I agree.
It wasn't as bad I almost expected hehe, but it could have been so much more!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 20, 2019, 11:03:16 PM
I'm not going to watch it, but quick question:

Were the freefolk spoilers correct in indicating that Sam invents democracy out of left field based on some book he found?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 20, 2019, 11:12:43 PM
I'm not going to watch it, but quick question:

Were the freefolk spoilers correct in indicating that Sam invents democracy out of left field based on some book he found?

He suggests democracy; I don't think its suggests where he finds the idea though. Why the hell someone who was part of an organisation selecting their HBiC through one man, one vote, would need a book to think of democracy is beyond me anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 21, 2019, 05:45:42 AM
I'm not going to watch it, but quick question:

Were the freefolk spoilers correct in indicating that Sam invents democracy out of left field based on some book he found?

He suggests democracy; I don't think its suggests where he finds the idea though. Why the hell someone who was part of an organisation selecting their HBiC through one man, one vote, would need a book to think of democracy is beyond me anyway.

Good point
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 21, 2019, 03:36:38 PM
This cracked me up:

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/15-epic-fantasies-that-stick-the-landing/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 22, 2019, 08:05:51 AM
I can't with this writing anymore. So many cringes this season (and 7, for that matter).

"I know a killer when I see one."

Some profound insight into the nature of a woman who just BURNED DOWN AN ENTIRE CITY.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: ScarletBea on May 22, 2019, 08:12:25 AM
As so many people are saying, it's the writing.

And more importantly, it's the sheer difference between the first 4-5 seasons and the last 2.
If it had started like it ended (fluffy, obvious, in-your-face) I don't think there would have been such a backlash, as "that's how the series is": this is like going into a 5-star hotel for a week, and during the first 4-5 days you get all the posh stuff but on the last 2 days they stick you in the basement rooms, with just the odd foray into the posh areas ::)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 22, 2019, 09:49:25 AM
[cynical rant]
I remember the moment I lost faith. It was when they'd spent most of season 7 making it look like Sansa and Arya were turning against each other only to go "SURPRISE!" right at the end, holding back the fact that they were working together against Littlefinger until the last second. It is the cheapest kind of storytelling trick used to create artificial tension and mystery (by hiding things from us that the protagonists/MCs are aware of), reserved for those who are incapable of creating mystery or surprise organically. I'm flabbergasted a script like that passed through what I assume to be a ton of QA.

Anyway, the series has ended. Things happened. I stopped caring. I'm not so bloated with entitlement that I'm signing polls to have the thing remade. But I AM disappointed, and deeply so. There could have been so much emotional power in those last few episodes. And as I watched, I felt nothing except for a malicious kind of glee as Dany burned everything down because it reflected how I felt about the series,  and because I knew it would drive a large part of the fanbase bonkers.

I hope someone learns something from this, but my hopes aren't exactly high as Benioff and Weiss have now been hired to write Star Wars...? I don't get it. I really don't.
[/cynical rant]
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 22, 2019, 11:44:37 AM
Honestly, I don't really get why the petition is entitled (although I know so many see it that way and wish it didn't exist because I think it lets people dismiss fan criticisms too easily).

Most of the time people put it that way (not wanting to put words in your mouth Magnus, just talking about the argument as I've seen it) they say "Its a product. Watch it if you like it, don't if you don't".

Except... if I order a burrito without cheese and it comes with cheese, it's going back to be remade (and that's behaviour chefs encourage). If I buy trousers online that say 34 and are really a 30, they go back. If a computer game comes with a bunch of bugs and there's no sign of a patch, I return it. Etc.etc. The ability to return and replace products that do not do what they say on the box is a key part of most product consumer relationships. So what gives TV shows a pass on the idea that if its bad, we'd want it replaced? The fact its never been done before? The fact its borderline impossible is a good one but I'm not sure that changes the moral rights of the consumer.

Does it change because its art, because its a story? Waterstones says no. They say they'll take that book back if its done within 30 days, has proof of purchase and is in pristine condition. Of course, one can't really give back Game of Thrones in the same way but again, we seem to be in the same basic paradigm. Disappointed GoT fans are consumers who cannot return the item or receive a refund in the normal way they'd do with the majority of why they consume - an action nobody would question in another type of transactions - what other recourse do they have other than demanding a remake?

And if it does change because its art... then there's a two way street, things are expected of the creators as well as the fans, and those things weren't delivered.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on May 22, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Well, I have watched season 8 only up to the third episode, but already knew most of the horrible horrible things that have happened from the internet. I don't think I'll even bother watching at this point and just pretend that this season doesn't exist  (Dang, and I've already bought several expensive posters for the show too  ???).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Brand J Alexander on May 22, 2019, 03:51:51 PM
Well, I have watched season 8 only up to the third episode, but already knew most of the horrible horrible things that have happened from the internet. I don't think I'll even bother watching at this point and just pretend that this season doesn't exist  (Dang, and I've already bought several expensive posters for the show too  ???).

After finishing the show, I've decided to edit the story in my mind. When the wall fell in Season 7, everything ended and the Night King won. There was no season 8. All men must die. And they did. The end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 22, 2019, 04:52:26 PM
Seriously? You're comparing a novel or a TV show you don't like with a pair of pants that don't fit or a burrito without cheese?

Please explain to me how demanding a TV series be remade or a novel rewritten is even remotely comparable to changing to a different size of pants or asking for the cheese you ordered.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 22, 2019, 05:03:44 PM
@Peat  I agree with the art sentiment when it comes to creative direction but I think here we're talking about skill

Season 1-5 vs S7&8 side by side comparison:

(https://images.app.goo.gl/N4Lm62KddChotrLs9)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/25/8d/77258d5495cc28c0f2b7846d499e0422.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 22, 2019, 05:16:18 PM
Seriously? You're comparing a novel or a TV show you don't like with a pair of pants that don't fit or a burrito without cheese?

Please explain to me how demanding a TV series be remade or a novel rewritten is even remotely comparable to changing to a different size of pants or asking for the cheese you ordered.

Then respond to what I said about what applies if the rules of expectation between producer and consumer change if its art because we give special rules to art. What are the expectations on the creator? Martin said he believes he owes fans his best work. Was that the show writers' best work?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 22, 2019, 05:57:25 PM
That is, of course, impossible to say. But under the circumstances, I think it would be hard to cram all that character development into 6ish hours of TV while also showing the big battles and bombastic scenes. In season 1 we skip past the battles, now they take up full episodes.

I would have liked to have seen Dany's change more clearly and convincingly. I would have liked for a lot of things to have been done differently. But they weren't, and here we are. I don't pretend that my liking the books and the early seasons gives me any right to claim how the later seasons should have been executed.

And I don't begin to pretend that I know the last bit about writing, directing, or producing a massive TV show with even more massive expectations on it -- all on a deadline. All I know is writing is damn difficult, and the writers here don't have the choice of working on the script for eight years (plus) until it's the best it can be, like GRRM has chosen to do (which is the context of his comment about owing his fans his best work).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 22, 2019, 05:58:59 PM
http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Neveesandeh on May 22, 2019, 06:04:42 PM
I was talking with my flatmate about the ending a few hours ago, and he said he quite liked it. He thinks it was pretty bad, but he argued that Game of Thrones has been pretty bad since season five, and by the standards of post season five Game of Thrones it was pretty solid.

His point being that if you saw the early seasons and the later seasons as two seperate television series with two very different levels of quality, then season eight was a good enough ending for the later seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Nora on May 22, 2019, 06:21:57 PM
Reading this thread is gold to me  ;D

I've been watching videos like this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8U6kjqLkJQ

to catch up with the final events. I see everyone is mixed between rage and despair... And I've got to say, I abandoned the series several seasons ago. As a matter of fact, I dropped it when they killed off the little frog guy who takes Bran with his sister to the north? And the weird wight shows up on his dead moose. None of that was happening in the series, and since it was nearing the end of the support material, I assume they were gearing towards deviating to their own storytelling and I just plain lost interest.

I'm very happy to consider this tv show as half canon and half fanfic. Fanfic isn't bad, it's just not for everyone.

Now to hope that GRRM returns to his own storyline now that the TV show wouldn't be doing any competition.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Neveesandeh on May 22, 2019, 08:03:40 PM
Reading this thread is gold to me  ;D

I've been watching videos like this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8U6kjqLkJQ

to catch up with the final events. I see everyone is mixed between rage and despair... And I've got to say, I abandoned the series several seasons ago. As a matter of fact, I dropped it when they killed off the little frog guy who takes Bran with his sister to the north? And the weird wight shows up on his dead moose. None of that was happening in the series, and since it was nearing the end of the support material, I assume they were gearing towards deviating to their own storytelling and I just plain lost interest.

I'm very happy to consider this tv show as half canon and half fanfic. Fanfic isn't bad, it's just not for everyone.

Now to hope that GRRM returns to his own storyline now that the TV show wouldn't be doing any competition.

Pretty much the same for me. I started with the books and the TV series diverged too much too soon for me to get all that interested in it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 23, 2019, 01:57:57 AM
As a matter of fact, I dropped it when they killed off the little frog guy who takes Bran with his sister to the north? And the weird wight shows up on his dead moose. .

Jojen!!! He's my favorite character in all the books. Yeah they royally f*ed up Brans storyline, when they didn't just skip it altogether. I don't think we'll ever get an explanation of Coldhands. And cutting out Lady Stoneheart was another disappointing choice around that time. But I loved jojen :( too bad they screwed that part all up
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on May 23, 2019, 08:00:40 AM
Well, I have watched season 8 only up to the third episode, but already knew most of the horrible horrible things that have happened from the internet. I don't think I'll even bother watching at this point and just pretend that this season doesn't exist  (Dang, and I've already bought several expensive posters for the show too  ???).

After finishing the show, I've decided to edit the story in my mind. When the wall fell in Season 7, everything ended and the Night King won. There was no season 8. All men must die. And they did. The end.

Hey, that's actually really nice. I would actually prefer an ending like that than the horrible last season we got, and it would let me part with the series in peace. It had a nice message too, "Death come for us all in the end, no matter high or low." Thanks Alexander!  :D

PS. I also stumbled across this Witcher 3 x Game of Thrones fanfiction, which as far as I've read is probably even better than the last two seasons of the show that we got.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 23, 2019, 09:14:26 AM
So many characters I miss, though I do get that it's impossible to put them all in. But no Vargo Hoat ("Kingthlayer!") and no Strong Belwas ("I let every man cut me once before I kill them") made me sad.

However, major changes to the story of existing ones upset me much more, particularly when it's to turn them more tropey and often make them fit a shittily patriarchal narrative (like adding rape to most of the strong women's backstories -- how else does a woman become strong, right? Sigh.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 23, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
That is, of course, impossible to say. But under the circumstances, I think it would be hard to cram all that character development into 6ish hours of TV while also showing the big battles and bombastic scenes. In season 1 we skip past the battles, now they take up full episodes.

I would have liked to have seen Dany's change more clearly and convincingly. I would have liked for a lot of things to have been done differently. But they weren't, and here we are. I don't pretend that my liking the books and the early seasons gives me any right to claim how the later seasons should have been executed.

And I don't begin to pretend that I know the last bit about writing, directing, or producing a massive TV show with even more massive expectations on it -- all on a deadline. All I know is writing is damn difficult, and the writers here don't have the choice of working on the script for eight years (plus) until it's the best it can be, like GRRM has chosen to do (which is the context of his comment about owing his fans his best work).

Maybe I'm being harsh, but I'm inclined to say that if you've got a body of work to look at and the creation in question is far inferior to the rest of it, you can be safe in that saying they didn't do their best unless there is some huge external pressure on them outside of their making.

Only having sixish hours was their choice. GRRM and HBO both wanted extra and/or bigger seasons; Benioff and Weiss won that fight. That's on them.

Running a massive show - they've showed they can do what it takes. The only thing that changes there is the weight of expectations but it's pretty much a rule of life that if you fail in a huge pressure situation, the most important thing in perceptions is that you failed. The pressure isn't a pass.

I can't be absolutely certain, but I think it goes beyond reasonable doubt that this isn't their best work. And the main thing that people cite as the difficulty/flaw - the rushed feeling we got from a short final season - was their choice.

So where are we in terms of acceptable fan reactions given the very strong likelihood that we didn't receive their best work?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Magnus Hedén on May 23, 2019, 11:41:57 AM
Of course I think people are allowed to be upset, sad, angry, and disappointed, and of course people should be able to voice that. But personally I think the line is crossed when fans start making demands. It's a basic misunderstanding of who owns the creative project.

The creators own the project, but not their fan's reactions. The fans own their reactions, but not the project.

Crossing that line from either direction is wrong. Creators have no right to tell fans what they should think and feel about their creation. Fans have no right to tell creators how and when to create (and there's a difference between expressing disappointment in a delayed book or the ending of a TV series and making a demand that it be handled a certain way).

I don't know the exact background, but if B&W were offered more time for ending the series but elected to make it shorter, I think that was a huge mistake. That being said, from what I understand they've been running the show pretty much from day one, so it's really their call. If it was a business decision from HBO that curbed the creative department, fans would be much more justified to make demands on HBO. But if the creators of the entire series decided it should end this way... then that's the way it ended.

To me it's obvious that fans are entitled to dislike B&W's decision, but they're not entitled to make that decision for them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 23, 2019, 02:40:39 PM
Of course I think people are allowed to be upset, sad, angry, and disappointed, and of course people should be able to voice that. But personally I think the line is crossed when fans start making demands. It's a basic misunderstanding of who owns the creative project.

The creators own the project, but not their fan's reactions. The fans own their reactions, but not the project.

Crossing that line from either direction is wrong. Creators have no right to tell fans what they should think and feel about their creation. Fans have no right to tell creators how and when to create (and there's a difference between expressing disappointment in a delayed book or the ending of a TV series and making a demand that it be handled a certain way).

I don't know the exact background, but if B&W were offered more time for ending the series but elected to make it shorter, I think that was a huge mistake. That being said, from what I understand they've been running the show pretty much from day one, so it's really their call. If it was a business decision from HBO that curbed the creative department, fans would be much more justified to make demands on HBO. But if the creators of the entire series decided it should end this way... then that's the way it ended.

To me it's obvious that fans are entitled to dislike B&W's decision, but they're not entitled to make that decision for them.

This might be semantic but the petition isn't making any demands of how the story should be told. It's simply saying it wasn't good enough and should be redone. It's not seeking to interfere with the creative process, it's just a total rejection of the outcome.

You might regard that as still crossing the line but I'm not sure I do.

What's more - the HBO executives could have stepped in at any time and told them "No", just like editors and publishers can. Creators don't have the unrestricted right to do what they want once money gets involved. The fans have no formal financial control, but they have provided a large amount of the money needed for the show to continue. The fans have no legal rights, but are their moral rights en masse that hugely different? Again, I'm not sure what I think here. Would they have crossed the line if they'd launched a mass petition asking/demanding more than six episodes and threatening a boycott if not, back when it was announced there'd only be six episodes? Or would they simply be trying to use their financial power like a studio would?

Finally - is that you answer as to what fans should be allowed to do when the creators keep to unspoken contracts, or what they should be allowed to do when its broken?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Skip on May 23, 2019, 04:15:42 PM
I lost interest in the books with Feast, so I was actually enjoying the TV version. It moved along better, and the visuals were great. Much of the acting was good, though a couple of the main actors had terribly limited range. But let's put all that to one side. To me, there's something larger at play here than personal preference.

GoT is a cultural phenomenon, in the same way as Star Wars or Star Trek or LotR. It doesn't really matter what B&W want to do with the story. When they undertook it, they were in some sense answerable to the whole culture. They're architecting a myth. And, to this viewer at least, it doesn't look like they took it all that seriously. What I saw were numerous examples of standard TV drama devices and tropes hauled out in service of trying to get Martin's sprawl onto the screen. Git 'er done. In purely TV dramatic series terms, they did fine. They got it done.

But the fans--let's call them viewers because I'm not a fan and I still had these expectations and hopes--the viewers wanted the grand legend that was promised. It was promised by the books and that promise was renewed in the early episodes. They led us to believe we were going to get a grand ending that was worthy of the story.

We didn't. So we're pissed. The anger doesn't stem from this inept scene or that unlikely twist or the dropped characters. Those were just the symptoms, the manifestations. The viewer anger stems from bitter disappointment.

Stories matter. Big stories matter in big ways, and this is a big story. And they muffed it. The reasons aren't reasons, they're just excuses because we were _promised_. It is a sad thing when a story teller fails the reader (or viewer). The bigger the story, the deeper the disappointment.

And that's precisely the point where B&W appear either not to understand, or not to care.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Nora on May 23, 2019, 06:49:24 PM
This might be semantic but the petition isn't making any demands of how the story should be told. It's simply saying it wasn't good enough and should be redone. It's not seeking to interfere with the creative process, it's just a total rejection of the outcome.

You might regard that as still crossing the line but I'm not sure I do.

Well ok, and what do the fans want, exactly?? It's not like a TV show can be redone off brilliant material, when the brilliant mind behind the story isn't writing or providing the story.
What if the last season is redone, and extended, and the fans still think it isn't on par with GRRM's plans? And what if production starts, and GRRM finally releases Winds of Winter next year, as he's been promising now?
Are you saying that a book series and tv show should go on in parallel with totally different content?

Fans need to chill out. I think their exigences are ludicrous and childish. I was NOT happy with the stupid, unnecessary liberties taken with the end of the Terror tv show, and I didn't go and rant and ask for a more faithful version to be made.
It's done, and maybe one day in some years, someone else will make a tv show of it, or a film, whatever. Who knows it may also suck!
In the meantime, HBO will air up to 4 new spin off series on GoT, with god knows what kind of writing, and fans will simply gobble it up and HBO will bury complaints just fine that way.

I think people need to get real. There is no way their opinion matters now that the show has ended. What are they going to do? Cancel their HBO accounts, and reopen them for the next GoT series or His Dark Material?


edit : Also, I found this and thought many might approve. :-p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhKOV3nImQ
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Peat on May 23, 2019, 07:33:14 PM
This might be semantic but the petition isn't making any demands of how the story should be told. It's simply saying it wasn't good enough and should be redone. It's not seeking to interfere with the creative process, it's just a total rejection of the outcome.

You might regard that as still crossing the line but I'm not sure I do.

Well ok, and what do the fans want, exactly?? It's not like a TV show can be redone off brilliant material, when the brilliant mind behind the story isn't writing or providing the story.
What if the last season is redone, and extended, and the fans still think it isn't on par with GRRM's plans? And what if production starts, and GRRM finally releases Winds of Winter next year, as he's been promising now?
Are you saying that a book series and tv show should go on in parallel with totally different content?

Fans need to chill out. I think their exigences are ludicrous and childish. I was NOT happy with the stupid, unnecessary liberties taken with the end of the Terror tv show, and I didn't go and rant and ask for a more faithful version to be made.
It's done, and maybe one day in some years, someone else will make a tv show of it, or a film, whatever. Who knows it may also suck!
In the meantime, HBO will air up to 4 new spin off series on GoT, with god knows what kind of writing, and fans will simply gobble it up and HBO will bury complaints just fine that way.

I think people need to get real. There is no way their opinion matters now that the show has ended. What are they going to do? Cancel their HBO accounts, and reopen them for the next GoT series or His Dark Material?

*shrugs* I don't know what the fans signing the petition want; I've only talked to one person who's said they've signed it. I suspect many of them know nothing would ever happen and simply want to stick their middle finger up.

I suspect most of them are pretty chill as well, except for when other fans say things like "chill out".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 24, 2019, 08:05:03 AM
I. Am. Not. Chill!!!!

Wait, what were we talking about again?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: D_Bates on May 31, 2019, 01:50:04 PM
I'm totally with Nora. At risk of triggering, and having read the comments with great intrigue, GoT has always been more hype than substance. Complaining of characters teleporting around is especially interesting since the very reason I gave up on the first book was illogical plotting and character movements. Catelyn in particular baffled me as to why or how she managed to travel to King's Landing only to be sent straight back home where she somehow bumps into Tyrion in a situation where one or the other is doing something entirely illogical for it to occur.

In terms of character motivations, those magical shades of grey--aka, a character without a clear motivation--I found nothing more head scratching than why Danaerys decided to go on a campaign for the Iron Throne, an object that she'd never seen, had no influence over the land she grew up in, was her brother's quest--a brother she outright dismissed in his entirety when she turned her back on him to let him die--and was arguably the source of all her misery. But power and birthright, I guess? Likewise the King's efforts to assassinate her seemed more a case of force plotting to create drama than any logical reason he had to fear she was going to depose him.

People attack this last season because GRR Martin thought it needed to go to 10. I don't doubt that. But he also said the book series was going to be finished in 3. Having wasted 800+ pages on the first book for it to ultimately go nowhere, I never thought he had an ending in mind, and nothing I've followed from the series since has convinced me that's the case. This is a magical story where winter is always coming but never actually arrives, and I believe he laid out in the opening when he stated there hadn't been a winter for centuries.
You can argue that in the course of a story you have diversions, but you have to question whether or not an author's grasping at straws to drag things out when you introduce a formerly dead Targaryen male five books in, just because you done fucked up by killing off the original male so you didn't have to deal with how his master plan of selling out his sister for a cavalry army to attack a fortified port city across the ocean would pan out.
It doesn't.

From my understanding the plot in the books has been coming apart since the third, and every TV series since 5 has been panned as 'disappointing'. Interestingly people here acknowledge how 1-5 was awesome, and 7 was a let down, but completely forget 6 even existed. People shouted down season 7 as 'filler to build to the big finale', and now they have that finale they're saying they need even more filler to bulk it out? The logic and reasoning behind the shock twist hooks never made any sense, they only worked early on because you put your faith in the creator that something WAS going to happen next as a result of them. 'Oh my God, the King just got killed by a random boar while hunting. How does this move things on?'

Then there are those who are now upset with the portrayal of women. I don't know if you're aware, but this was just how women were treated in medieval times. At least that's what's been drummed into my head whenever I've questioned this in the past. Then again, a famous American author once said of 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' that if you want a bestseller make sure to sprinkle in a healthy dose of misogyny. Sex also sells hadn't you heard, so it's also not surprising that softporn in a primetime TV slot draws a lot of eyeballs. But no, it's all about those unbelievable characters and tight exquisite plotting.

At the end of the day people are entitled to enjoy what they like, and the deep analysis of character motivations even in this forum thread is a goldmine of interest, even if I think people are filling in the blanks. But that's the magic of stories. How they are interpreted is unique to each of us. As much as Martin's characters made me want to gauge my eyes out, I thoroughly enjoyed his world description. I still rate his scene with Eddard and the King in the crypt up there with the best I've ever read.

But yeah, it is what it is. GoT was never going to be the next LotR, because it never had the clear cut mission toward an ending from the get go. It was just a big fancy world made up of big fancy feuding families, most of which were probably copied from some obscure history book and renamed with odd spellings of real world names. But now it's done, winter succumbed to global warming, democracy won out and brought Starbucks to the kingdom, and now it's time to all move on to different things. Petitions to remake the series, attacks on the directors, using it to foreshadow the collapse of other franchises like Star Wars, all splashed in with GRR Martin love letters is taking the hype to an unhealthy level.
newsflash, Star Wars doesn't need GoT or its directors to run itself into the ground
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on June 08, 2019, 08:08:53 AM
I've watched the finale of GOT, and I have to say that it is quite better than I had thought it's going to be. There were some blurbs/ errors and disappointments for sure, but it's still pretty high in quality compared to other shows. The ending is kind of bittersweet but I guess everyone left alive kind of got what they wanted in the end.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: isos81 on June 08, 2019, 11:17:13 AM
I remember seeing a meme about Tyrion saying "who has a better story than Bran the Broken".  This was the header of the meme and there were 9 characters including the girl whose brother was killed and carried Bran  ;D Even that girl had a better story :)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on June 09, 2019, 04:34:27 AM
I remember seeing a meme about Tyrion saying "who has a better story than Bran the Broken".  This was the header of the meme and there were 9 characters including the girl whose brother was killed and carried Bran  ;D Even that girl had a better story :)

But but, he's got them CCTV eyes and could access his own Branhub though (if you knew what I meant)  ;D.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
Post by: Skip on June 10, 2019, 12:42:54 AM
I just saw Avengers Endgame (been sick; finally well enough to go to a public theater!) and the difference could not have been more striking. Where GoT ends in such a mess that people have spent weeks explaining and justifying it to each other, Endgame tied up the story with an expert hand. That story arguably sprawled even more than GoT, but everyone's individual arc came to a satisfying conclusion. Nearly miraculous, considering how many hands were at the helm.

So, no, I don't let the creators of the GoT series of the hook, not even a little bit. Feige &cetera knew they were telling a cultural epic, took their responsibility seriously (which means they took the *fans* seriously), and delivered a conclusion that was worthy of the story that brought us there.

For all of its waywardness, the Star Wars saga also has seemed consistently like the creators were trying. They missed more often than did the Marvel folk, but there too it seemed they knew they were telling an epic, and I'm grateful to them for it. The GoT crew seemed closer to the makers of 1950s SF flicks. Who cares if it makes sense. Show some flesh, throw in some scares, some monsters, and take home the money. If it's just the B movie at a double feature, I don't mind. But when it's a story that captures millions, you need to swing for the fences, not burn them down.

I've long since said my spiel on this. It's just that Endgame was so good, it reminded me why I was so disappointed with GoT.