Fantasy Faction

Fantasy Faction => Fantasy Book & Author Discussion => Topic started by: eclipse on May 31, 2018, 11:22:01 AM

Title: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: eclipse on May 31, 2018, 11:22:01 AM
I always liked Flint Fireforge arc from Dragonlance even if it was a bit sad at the end.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Peat on May 31, 2018, 11:31:47 AM
Off the top of my head...

Rand Al'Thor - Wheel of Time - Watching a likable young lad struggle under a crushing weight of expectation, watch it pull him under then see him rise phoenix like to be the best of both worlds was one of my seminal fantasy experiences, and I think this might always be the arc I measure others against.

Mat Cauthon - Wheel of Time - I loved watching the way his sense of responsibility changed. Rek in Gemmell's Legend would be another good example of this.

Dave Martinyuk - Fionavar Tapestry - From bitter and insecure to confident in his own skin

Dashiel Jamieson - The Serpentwar Saga - Kinda like Mat, but I liked the way his experiences changed his world view, particularly compared to his brother, with whom he was near identical

Jimmy the Hand - Midkemia cycle - From brash and irreverent throwaway thief to implacably devoted elder statesman via all steps in between. One of the very few fantasy characters who I got to see go from 16 to 60.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Saraband on May 31, 2018, 03:16:12 PM
I really love Sebastian's arc in Jen Williams' The Copper Cat trilogy. I've also been enjoying Maniye, from Adrian Tchaikovsky's Echoes of the Fall series, but I haven't read the latest book yet - I don't know how satisfying the conclusion of her arc will be, but the journey so far has been quite good  :)
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: The Gem Cutter on May 31, 2018, 03:22:24 PM
Drusas Achamian in The Prince of Nothing books. It's an unconventional arc, but I found it supremely satisfying.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: ScarletBea on May 31, 2018, 03:42:16 PM
I really love Sebastian's arc in Jen Williams' The Copper Cat trilogy.
This too :)

I also love the development of Malta in Robin Hobb's books, starting with the Liveship Traders trilogy. From a person I was quite happy hating and grew to love, that is BIG!
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: J.R. Darewood on May 31, 2018, 04:33:21 PM
I always liked Flint Fireforge arc from Dragonlance even if it was a bit sad at the end.

Hmmm it's been so long I can't remember what happened to Flint. Raistlin and Caramon tho... Especially at the ending to their trilogy with Raistlin in the Abyss... that made an impression.

In mythology I've always been fascinated by Medea's transition from love to bitterness, in WoT Egwene's development into a boundary spanning leader (and Suian's fall and search for meaning) were particularly compelling
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Neveesandeh on May 31, 2018, 10:43:10 PM
Jorg Ancrath in the Broken Empire trilogy without a shadow of a doubt.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Elfy on May 31, 2018, 10:46:28 PM
Although it's not, and may never be finished in book form at least, I've always liked the arc of Jaime in AsoIaF, he goes from total black hat in the first book, to a swashbuckling hero in the 3rd, willing to sacrifice his own life for that of someone else.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Peat on May 31, 2018, 11:35:50 PM
Bigby Dareweasel and Elfy make excellent points. Particularly with Egwene. I'm not sure there's a character in the history of fantasy who's taken more ranks in badass between first and last appearance.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Lady Ty on June 01, 2018, 05:34:52 AM
Probably these two, vastly different.

Sam Vimes of Discworld. Began as a disillusioned, cynical man, depressed, narrow minded in some respects  and suspicious of authority. Gradually discovers his natural talent for leadership and the ability to wield authority in an effective way without domination. Mind broadens and he actually learns about aspects of leadership from Lord Vetinari. Finds a softer side, without it affecting his need for toughness and ends up as an effective diplomat without relinquishing any of his down to earth practicality.   All happens gradually over several books and aided indirectly by the differing influence of all the characters around him.

Maia The Goblin Emperor begins life as a reviled outcast son and unexpectedly becomes Emperor. Sounds pretty standard, but the difference here is that he did not become an acclaimed hero by brave or daring, or intricate plotting, but quietly sticking to his principles, watching and learning as he went, applying lessons of caution he had learned in captivity, gently taking control little by little and changing things around him. By the end all was still not perfect but he had grown within himself and had the makings of a successful future for himself and his empire. This may sound boring because lacking great action, but it was clever, subtle and enjoyable and Maia was very endearing as his innocent naivete gave way to understanding.

I suspect Raistlin and Pug would have been on this list once, but it is too long since I have read them, although @Peat has just made me want to visit Midkemia again.  ;)

Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on June 02, 2018, 04:15:17 PM
Kaladin and Dalinar in the Stormlight Archives! Absolutely fantastic!
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Magnus Hedén on June 02, 2018, 05:43:11 PM
How is Glokta not on here yet?  ;D

I really enjoyed Syenite's story in the Broken Earth trilogy. Logen Ninefingers in the First Law trilogy also springs to mind, especially if you include the 'bonus' books (can't say much more without spoilering).
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: ScarletBea on June 02, 2018, 05:46:43 PM
I really enjoyed Syenite's story in the Broken Earth trilogy.
Oh, yes, her! *Everything* she does throughout her life ;)
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Peat on June 02, 2018, 10:27:30 PM

I suspect Raistlin and Pug would have been on this list once, but it is too long since I have read them, although @Peat has just made me want to visit Midkemia again.  ;)

My work here is done :D

I considered Vimes (and Weatherwax too) but both felt like they shifted because of Pratchett's idea of them shifted, more than a planned arc in response to events. I might be wrong.

I've always felt that his best character arc is Magrat Garlick, but I never found it particularly satisfying.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: NedMarcus on June 03, 2018, 02:14:34 AM
Mara in the Empire Trilogy by Raymond Feist & Janny Wurts. Also Pug (Feist) and Malta (Hobb).
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Peat on June 08, 2018, 11:49:06 AM

I suspect Raistlin and Pug would have been on this list once, but it is too long since I have read them, although @Peat has just made me want to visit Midkemia again.  ;)

While I'm on my Midkemia kick, I've got to add Erik von Darkmoor and Roo Avery - particularly Roo. The basics of Roo never changes - greedy, opportunistic, damaged, risk tasking and somewhat selfish with narrow loyalties - he goes through a lot of lessons about what matters and becomes a far better version of them as a result.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: J.R. Darewood on June 08, 2018, 10:41:52 PM

I suspect Raistlin and Pug would have been on this list once, but it is too long since I have read them, although @Peat has just made me want to visit Midkemia again.  ;)

While I'm on my Midkemia kick, I've got to add Erik von Darkmoor and Roo Avery - particularly Roo. The basics of Roo never changes - greedy, opportunistic, damaged, risk tasking and somewhat selfish with narrow loyalties - he goes through a lot of lessons about what matters and becomes a far better version of them as a result.

Now I want to read this...
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Lady Ty on June 10, 2018, 03:10:12 AM


I considered Vimes (and Weatherwax too) but both felt like they shifted because of Pratchett's idea of them shifted, more than a planned arc in response to events. I might be wrong.


@Peat, this has been churning around in my mind as a very interesting point and would like to run this past you, although prefer not to start a new thread. I don't think you are either right or wrong, because isn't this a bit like a chicken and an egg? 

There is no set rule that says a character has to be fully planned from start to finish. Again of course there are the meticulous planners, who probably will, and the pantsers who are less likely to plan in detail. With the huge scope of Discworld, main ongoing characters are always going to change because of events, just as in real life.

I don't think TP planned every subject he would address in the whole series from the start, it grew like an amazing monster because of the response to the first few. Then as he added later books his main characters would inevitably improve or diminish in response, so he developed them accordingly.  I agree with your point that Nightwatch, for example, was probably a deliberate vehicle to build on Vimes character, but even other books would contribute.  Maybe Jingo would still affect his older character reactions in Monstrous Regiment?

Who can second guess the wonderful mind of TP, somehow I see him as a basic planner but being an absolutely brilliant pantser as he wrote, chuckling and chortling away as he went along, then suddenly changing a script in the middle, just because he saw a new avenue to run away on, or thought of a new scene that would fit.  Just my imagination of course, and a way to soften the emptiness of his loss.

Maybe he did choose particular events to shape his characters, but does that really matter or diminish the way the arc is developed or completed?

Agree with you re Magrat, I also found her likeable but unsatisfying,although maybe her rather vague ordinariness was what was important and I am missing the point.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Peat on June 11, 2018, 11:07:18 AM


I considered Vimes (and Weatherwax too) but both felt like they shifted because of Pratchett's idea of them shifted, more than a planned arc in response to events. I might be wrong.


@Peat, this has been churning around in my mind as a very interesting point and would like to run this past you, although prefer not to start a new thread. I don't think you are either right or wrong, because isn't this a bit like a chicken and an egg? 

There is no set rule that says a character has to be fully planned from start to finish. Again of course there are the meticulous planners, who probably will, and the pantsers who are less likely to plan in detail. With the huge scope of Discworld, main ongoing characters are always going to change because of events, just as in real life.

I don't think TP planned every subject he would address in the whole series from the start, it grew like an amazing monster because of the response to the first few. Then as he added later books his main characters would inevitably improve or diminish in response, so he developed them accordingly.  I agree with your point that Nightwatch, for example, was probably a deliberate vehicle to build on Vimes character, but even other books would contribute.  Maybe Jingo would still affect his older character reactions in Monstrous Regiment?

Who can second guess the wonderful mind of TP, somehow I see him as a basic planner but being an absolutely brilliant pantser as he wrote, chuckling and chortling away as he went along, then suddenly changing a script in the middle, just because he saw a new avenue to run away on, or thought of a new scene that would fit.  Just my imagination of course, and a way to soften the emptiness of his loss.

Maybe he did choose particular events to shape his characters, but does that really matter or diminish the way the arc is developed or completed?

Agree with you re Magrat, I also found her likeable but unsatisfying,although maybe her rather vague ordinariness was what was important and I am missing the point.

*scratches beard* I'm still struggling to express what I mean here, but here goes -

For some characters, the characters don't change because of stuff that happened in the book, but because the author's idea of them changed so in between books the character changes for no given reason. It's not about whether they planned a change, or they did stuff to the character and they changed I guess - it's about whether they gave reasons for the character to change, or whether they basically just waved the retcon wand with no explanation. Does that make sense?

I think Pratchett waved the retcon wand over Discworld a lot and that hit a lot of character arcs - as you say, it grew like an amazing monster. I don't feel like Vimes has a meaningful arc from Guards! Guards! as I think Pratchett waved the wand there.

However, now you mention it, there does seem to be an arc from Jingo certainly - the older Vimes would never have hesitated the way he did at points in Jingo.

As for Magrat - I just always found she grated a little, but her flaws resemble some of mine a bit too closely for comfort. And certainly, I think having this very ordinary young woman in the company of two iron willed titans was very much the point in some cases - and watching her grow her own iron will was a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Peat on June 11, 2018, 01:25:07 PM
While Lady Ty is making me think, Cheery Littlebottom from Discworld.

Starts as just another misfit in a job they're ill suited for, trying to express a personality the world has little use for. But bit by bit, we get to watch Cheery grow into job and personality perfectly. Also a great straight man for comedy purposes.


I suspect Raistlin and Pug would have been on this list once, but it is too long since I have read them, although @Peat has just made me want to visit Midkemia again.  ;)

While I'm on my Midkemia kick, I've got to add Erik von Darkmoor and Roo Avery - particularly Roo. The basics of Roo never changes - greedy, opportunistic, damaged, risk tasking and somewhat selfish with narrow loyalties - he goes through a lot of lessons about what matters and becomes a far better version of them as a result.

Now I want to read this...

Feist is a frustrating author in terms of introducing ideas and never really finishing them - and I think that's the case with Roo - but at the same time, he attempts a lot of ideas that trad fantasy tends to ignore. Well worth a gander but caveat emptor.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Bender on June 15, 2018, 11:29:36 PM
Moist von Lipwig - Terry Pratchett

FitzChivalry Farseer - Robin Hobb

Sigrud je Harkvaldsson - Robert Jackson Bennett

Druss and Jon Shannow - David Gemmell

Atticus O'Sullivan - Kevin Hearne

Croaker - Glen Cook

Mat Cauthon - Robert Jordan


And there was this steampunk quadrology about a pirate captain, I can't remember.






Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Elfy on June 16, 2018, 03:43:27 AM
Moist von Lipwig - Terry Pratchett

FitzChivalry Farseer - Robin Hobb

Sigrud je Harkvaldsson - Robert Jackson Bennett

Druss and Jon Shannow - David Gemmell

Atticus O'Sullivan - Kevin Hearne

Croaker - Glen Cook

Mat Cauthon - Robert Jordan


And there was this steampunk quadrology about a pirate captain, I can't remember.
I belive you're thinking about Darian Frey from Chris Wooding's Tales of the Ketty Jay series.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Bender on June 16, 2018, 12:22:12 PM
I belive you're thinking about Darian Frey from Chris Wooding's Tales of the Ketty Jay series.

Nail on the head. Thanks.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Elfy on June 17, 2018, 02:29:00 AM
I belive you're thinking about Darian Frey from Chris Wooding's Tales of the Ketty Jay series.

Nail on the head. Thanks.
Np. That was a great series. I also think Crake from the same series had a pretty decent character arc, as did Malvery, in fact pretty much the entire crew, even Slag the cat.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Bender on June 20, 2018, 12:01:01 AM
I belive you're thinking about Darian Frey from Chris Wooding's Tales of the Ketty Jay series.

Nail on the head. Thanks.
Np. That was a great series. I also think Crake from the same series had a pretty decent character arc, as did Malvery, in fact pretty much the entire crew, even Slag the cat.

I've always had a soft corner for Jez. I found her arc to be a bit tragic, but somehow fitting.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Yora on June 22, 2018, 08:41:43 PM
The best character arc I didn'r read, but it was Zuko in Avatar. That's one really damn great character that changes so dramatically while simultaneously staying consistent from start to finish. He's so well conflicted that he can jump around between extremes and still remain true to character while doing it.

Imagine that emo guy from the new Star Wars, but done really, really well.  :P
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: tebakutis on June 22, 2018, 10:57:46 PM
The best character arc I didn'r read, but it was Zuko in Avatar. That's one really damn great character that changes so dramatically while simultaneously staying consistent from start to finish. He's so well conflicted that he can jump around between extremes and still remain true to character while doing it.

Imagine that emo guy from the new Star Wars, but done really, really well.  :P

Agreed! Zuko's arc is wonderful.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Neveesandeh on June 24, 2018, 02:14:35 PM
The best character arc I didn'r read, but it was Zuko in Avatar. That's one really damn great character that changes so dramatically while simultaneously staying consistent from start to finish. He's so well conflicted that he can jump around between extremes and still remain true to character while doing it.

Imagine that emo guy from the new Star Wars, but done really, really well.  :P

I've been meaning to watch Avatar for a while. So far I've only seen LoK. I know that one's pretty divisive, but overall I really liked it. Especially the third series.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Mark Lawrence on June 26, 2018, 04:48:51 PM
Jorg Ancrath in the Broken Empire trilogy without a shadow of a doubt.

Hooray  :D

Not sure who I would choose. Robin Hobb's Fitz has a long and entertaining book life, not sure if I would call it satisfying.

Some great unfinished arcs in A Song of Ice and Fire. Jaime and Tyrion, but also maybe Aria and Sansa.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: NedMarcus on June 27, 2018, 12:44:18 AM

Not sure who I would choose. Robin Hobb's Fitz has a long and entertaining book life, not sure if I would call it satisfying.


I loved these stories, but I'm not sure Fitz's character arc was satisfying either.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Dark Squiggle on June 27, 2018, 04:59:52 AM
The Jean Valjean-Javert duo from Les Miserables.  Their lives both begin with a set path, but both are forced to admit their outlooks are wrong and change, and both choose to leave the world when it no longer needs them.They are nearly identical yet polar opposites. Their lives are just a little out of sync, and that makes all the difference.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on June 27, 2018, 07:38:25 AM
Sanderson continually impresses me with Dalinar's character arcs. He's fully already fully developed and characterized in his old-age self (present time of the story), and Sanderson managed to even further developed his character by introducing flashback during Dalinar's youthful days in Oathbringer. Lovin' it!  :D
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Bender on June 28, 2018, 12:08:58 AM
Sanderson continually impresses me with Dalinar's character arcs. He's fully already fully developed and characterized in his old-age self (present time of the story), and Sanderson managed to even further developed his character by introducing flashback during Dalinar's youthful days in Oathbringer. Lovin' it!  :D

I'll be honest. I thought Dalinar youth was one of the worst arcs in that series. It didn't have the gravitas and paid scant attention to the actual relationship. The love for his wife was portrayed astonishingly badly and left a massive hole to n trying to explain his reaction to the tragedy. I was disappointed.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Lanko on June 28, 2018, 02:29:02 AM
The best character arc I didn'r read, but it was Zuko in Avatar. That's one really damn great character that changes so dramatically while simultaneously staying consistent from start to finish. He's so well conflicted that he can jump around between extremes and still remain true to character while doing it.

Imagine that emo guy from the new Star Wars, but done really, really well.  :P

I've been meaning to watch Avatar for a while. So far I've only seen LoK. I know that one's pretty divisive, but overall I really liked it. Especially the third series.

Agreed with Zuko. I don't really do this very often, but the four seasons of Avatar: The Last Airbender were binge-watched, because it was a really good show (though maybe there was a little Deus Ex near the ending).

Legend of Korra... I stopped in the middle of season 2 and haven't touched it since...which was probably two years or more.

I think the big difference is how they've structured the shows. TLA was one big epic story while LOK was segmented. The first season has a guy who wants to rebel against the bender's society because benders had almost all (or all) political power and non-benders none. The villain could remove bending from people and it was pretty frightening while the new Avatar was very inexperienced.

But in about 10 chapters everything gets solved with minimal problems and consequences. And then another arc begins and almost nothing that happened previously matter.

I think that most people expected it to be a little more similar in structure to TLA. I think the best comparison is that imagine TLA is a novel, and then the author releases book two (LOK) as an anthology of short stories.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Bender on June 28, 2018, 03:22:51 AM
Legend of Korra felt like a teenage show. If you're in highschool you'd enjoy it. TLA was evergreen.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Neveesandeh on June 28, 2018, 07:14:20 AM
The best character arc I didn'r read, but it was Zuko in Avatar. That's one really damn great character that changes so dramatically while simultaneously staying consistent from start to finish. He's so well conflicted that he can jump around between extremes and still remain true to character while doing it.

Imagine that emo guy from the new Star Wars, but done really, really well.  :P

I've been meaning to watch Avatar for a while. So far I've only seen LoK. I know that one's pretty divisive, but overall I really liked it. Especially the third series.

Agreed with Zuko. I don't really do this very often, but the four seasons of Avatar: The Last Airbender were binge-watched, because it was a really good show (though maybe there was a little Deus Ex near the ending).

Legend of Korra... I stopped in the middle of season 2 and haven't touched it since...which was probably two years or more.

I think the big difference is how they've structured the shows. TLA was one big epic story while LOK was segmented. The first season has a guy who wants to rebel against the bender's society because benders had almost all (or all) political power and non-benders none. The villain could remove bending from people and it was pretty frightening while the new Avatar was very inexperienced.

But in about 10 chapters everything gets solved with minimal problems and consequences. And then another arc begins and almost nothing that happened previously matter.

I think that most people expected it to be a little more similar in structure to TLA. I think the best comparison is that imagine TLA is a novel, and then the author releases book two (LOK) as an anthology of short stories.

I think a lot of people gave up in the middle of season two, probably because it was the weakest in the series. I personally would say that three is the best, followed by either four or one, most likely four, then two. And while three and four do have different antagonists, the events in four are directly caused by those in three.

But for all I enjoyed the series, it does have some flaws. The episode dedicated to a love triangle was painful to watch.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: eclipse on June 30, 2018, 09:55:54 PM
Marron Shed from the Black Company series.
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: ScarletBea on July 01, 2018, 09:21:45 AM
I wonder if we're all thinking about the same thing here (no problem if we aren't).
For me, a "character arc" is when they start as a person type X and end up as type Y, with a good, reasonable, logic and well-developed explanation/plot about the change.

Some of the examples given wouldn't fit for me (for example Jorg), since I don't think they changed enough (not that that is a bad thing, just a different type of plot/book)
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Lanko on July 01, 2018, 06:57:41 PM
I wonder if we're all thinking about the same thing here (no problem if we aren't).
For me, a "character arc" is when they start as a person type X and end up as type Y, with a good, reasonable, logic and well-developed explanation/plot about the change.

I think this is more of a modern thing, but some of the best arcs and stories of the past were about how the character fails exactly by refusing to change, like Moby Dick or the Epic of Gilgamesh.

I think this kind of character nowadays don't get to be the main character or even have a POV (or I haven't read one so far). Usually they have been "POVless" villains (Regal, Joffrey, etc).

I wonder if Cersei is the current exception. She is full of self-destructiveness and refusal. Despite numerous warnings, signals and events in the story, she refuses to change her ways and see things differently. Quite the contrary, she becomes every more certain of her ways, about Tyrion, about a lot of things, even when they were at her side and were actually pushed to be enemies by her own hand.

Jorg's change isn't as flashy or big but it's pretty noticeable. He could've become like his father, but consciously stray from that path. I think the biggest comparison was when his father didn't even try to avenge his mother despite being king and having an army and later in the series when his grandfather and his small household is being threatened, he travels from Europe to Lybia, alone and on foot, to take satisfactions from the sultan.

I wonder if there are novels like those old examples, when the MC doesn't change (or refuses) and fails. Maybe and probably they can be more easily found on the literary or non-fiction sections.

Or better still, novels where refusing change is the actual correct choice. Change isn't always good. I think the more extreme examples are resistance from governments (1984, historical fiction say about resistance against Nazis and such) but I think those lack the refusal of the individual and personal change and without the absolute certainty that the opposition is evil, like the government of 1984 or Nazis. 
Title: Re: Most satisfying character arcs you’ve read?
Post by: Elfy on July 01, 2018, 10:42:22 PM
I wonder if we're all thinking about the same thing here (no problem if we aren't).
For me, a "character arc" is when they start as a person type X and end up as type Y, with a good, reasonable, logic and well-developed explanation/plot about the change.

Some of the examples given wouldn't fit for me (for example Jorg), since I don't think they changed enough (not that that is a bad thing, just a different type of plot/book)
I agree with you, Bea, which is why I threw up Jaime as an example. Another recent one, and it's a TV show, not a book, is Lee Sizemore in Westworld. His transformation from S1 to S2 was quite extraordinary and a good example of how a situation can change a character.