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Author Topic: Miscellaneous Musings about Books  (Read 237056 times)

Offline Raptori

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #210 on: March 19, 2015, 12:05:55 PM »
There's an enormous bell in Belgium that depicted the legend and folks named it after the horse. Nowadays it's not ringing anymore due to being too heavy. It dates from the middle ages.
This or the origin is some old word that traces waaay back before that. Not as nice a story tho >.> call it preferable history.

@Raptori  I don't even know how to pronounce that...
Like this ;)

Twists his tongue in this painful ordeal.
Jk ^^
It's weird tho. I'll have to ask my baker if he has some of that...that...ruisleipa thing (w/ever). Wonder if they sell it here?
Hehe it's funny actually, all Finnish words are spelled phonetically. The moment you work it out, you can read any Finnish word and sound like you speak the language, even if you have no clue what you're saying. As someone who grew up speaking English, that is unspeakably weird  :D

There are a lot of different types of ruisleipä, basically any bread made using rye flour (ruis = rye, leipä = bread). The most common type (looks like this) is really dark and thick, and is very nice when toasted but probably not as nice as baguettes or similar. The one I'm thinking of (this one) is much thicker, lighter, and fluffier, isn't quite as dark, and somehow manages to be both soft and crispy when it's toasted right. Cannot describe the taste properly but it's awesome...
I wish the world was flat like the old days, then I could travel just by folding a map.

Online Henry Dale

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #211 on: March 19, 2015, 12:12:41 PM »
There's an enormous bell in Belgium that depicted the legend and folks named it after the horse. Nowadays it's not ringing anymore due to being too heavy. It dates from the middle ages.
This or the origin is some old word that traces waaay back before that. Not as nice a story tho >.> call it preferable history.

@Raptori  I don't even know how to pronounce that...
Like this ;)

Twists his tongue in this painful ordeal.
Jk ^^
It's weird tho. I'll have to ask my baker if he has some of that...that...ruisleipa thing (w/ever). Wonder if they sell it here?
Hehe it's funny actually, all Finnish words are spelled phonetically. The moment you work it out, you can read any Finnish word and sound like you speak the language, even if you have no clue what you're saying. As someone who grew up speaking English, that is unspeakably weird  :D

There are a lot of different types of ruisleipä, basically any bread made using rye flour (ruis = rye, leipä = bread). The most common type (looks like this) is really dark and thick, and is very nice when toasted but probably not as nice as baguettes or similar. The one I'm thinking of (this one) is much thicker, lighter, and fluffier, isn't quite as dark, and somehow manages to be both soft and crispy when it's toasted right. Cannot describe the taste properly but it's awesome...

Hehe, the dude on the packaging looks so smug :p
It looks yummy. I'll try to find it this saturday.

Offline Nora

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #212 on: March 19, 2015, 12:13:41 PM »
Quote
Hehe it's funny actually, all Finnish words are spelled phonetically. The moment you work it out, you can read any Finnish word and sound like you speak the language, even if you have no clue what you're saying. As someone who grew up speaking English, that is unspeakably weird   

Funny, completely the case in Japanese too. At least to a French speaker.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

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Offline Raptori

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #213 on: March 19, 2015, 12:18:59 PM »
Hehe, the dude on the packaging looks so smug :p
It looks yummy. I'll try to find it this saturday.
Lol yep :D Well worth it, best bread ever. And smoked tofu is divine...  ;)

Quote
Hehe it's funny actually, all Finnish words are spelled phonetically. The moment you work it out, you can read any Finnish word and sound like you speak the language, even if you have no clue what you're saying. As someone who grew up speaking English, that is unspeakably weird   

Funny, completely the case in Japanese too. At least to a French speaker.
Yeah, though I always though that was the case because Japanese has been transcribed into the latin alphabet phonetically? Apparently there are a lot of other similarities between the two languages too, oddly enough  :o
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Offline Nora

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #214 on: March 19, 2015, 12:31:04 PM »
No no japanese as you read it.

I learnt it for four years, I've forgotten all my few kanji but there is no forgetting how the syllable-alphabet thingy works. The symbol used to write japanese are : a i u e o and all the derivative syllables : na ni nu ne no / ma mi mu me mo / some exceptions like ta chi tsu te to / sa shi su se so ect.
So the once you know how to pronounce a (like in alphabet), i (like "ee" in leek), u (a weird one in between ou and mUsic) e (like the French é, or er can't think an exemple) and normal o, then you can pretty much pronounce everything correctly!
The R is rolled so some people transcript it as L.
Japanese is easy as on that aspect, and a lot of others, and then it turns around and stabs you in the eye with verbs and politeness levels.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline Raptori

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #215 on: March 19, 2015, 12:55:18 PM »
No no japanese as you read it.

I learnt it for four years, I've forgotten all my few kanji but there is no forgetting how the syllable-alphabet thingy works. The symbol used to write japanese are : a i u e o and all the derivative syllables : na ni nu ne no / ma mi mu me mo / some exceptions like ta chi tsu te to / sa shi su se so ect.
So the once you know how to pronounce a (like in alphabet), i (like "ee" in leek), u (a weird one in between ou and mUsic) e (like the French é, or er can't think an exemple) and normal o, then you can pretty much pronounce everything correctly!
The R is rolled so some people transcript it as L.
Japanese is easy as on that aspect, and a lot of others, and then it turns around and stabs you in the eye with verbs and politeness levels.
Yeah that's what I mean, that when written using latin letters it's phonetic, because the language didn't develop using those letters. When they wanted to start writing Japanese using latin letters, they worked out a logical way of phonetically writing down the words, correct? At least that's what I always thought, not sure where I got the idea from though  ???
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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #216 on: March 19, 2015, 01:00:44 PM »
An impartial *cough cough* nationality votes 100% for the English names of things ;D

(and funny, I created this thread for book-related mindless chat - maybe we need a monthly writing contest on food ;))
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 01:02:18 PM by ScarletBea »
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Online Henry Dale

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #217 on: March 19, 2015, 01:15:36 PM »
An impartial *cough cough* nationality votes 100% for the English names of things ;D

(and funny, I created this thread for book-related mindless chat - maybe we need a monthly writing contest on food ;))

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Offline Nora

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #218 on: March 19, 2015, 07:05:16 PM »
No no japanese as you read it.

I learnt it for four years, I've forgotten all my few kanji but there is no forgetting how the syllable-alphabet thingy works. The symbol used to write japanese are : a i u e o and all the derivative syllables : na ni nu ne no / ma mi mu me mo / some exceptions like ta chi tsu te to / sa shi su se so ect.
So the once you know how to pronounce a (like in alphabet), i (like "ee" in leek), u (a weird one in between ou and mUsic) e (like the French é, or er can't think an exemple) and normal o, then you can pretty much pronounce everything correctly!
The R is rolled so some people transcript it as L.
Japanese is easy as on that aspect, and a lot of others, and then it turns around and stabs you in the eye with verbs and politeness levels.
Yeah that's what I mean, that when written using latin letters it's phonetic, because the language didn't develop using those letters. When they wanted to start writing Japanese using latin letters, they worked out a logical way of phonetically writing down the words, correct? At least that's what I always thought, not sure where I got the idea from though  ???

Aaah ok sorry I slightly misunderstood you.
Yeah I guess they did. But it still seems to me that it doesn't influence the easiness of the language when if comes to pronunciation. I just meant, like, you know how we French have hard "r"? Or Arabians have a sound that's like a deep throaty "cough"? Even writing those in a simpler, more phonetic way wouldn't help English speakers : you're just not used to those sounds.
I just meant that there is no such obstacle in japanese for French speakers. English is even much harder! With it's "th" and other tongue twisters!
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline Raptori

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #219 on: March 19, 2015, 07:18:40 PM »
No no japanese as you read it.

I learnt it for four years, I've forgotten all my few kanji but there is no forgetting how the syllable-alphabet thingy works. The symbol used to write japanese are : a i u e o and all the derivative syllables : na ni nu ne no / ma mi mu me mo / some exceptions like ta chi tsu te to / sa shi su se so ect.
So the once you know how to pronounce a (like in alphabet), i (like "ee" in leek), u (a weird one in between ou and mUsic) e (like the French é, or er can't think an exemple) and normal o, then you can pretty much pronounce everything correctly!
The R is rolled so some people transcript it as L.
Japanese is easy as on that aspect, and a lot of others, and then it turns around and stabs you in the eye with verbs and politeness levels.
Yeah that's what I mean, that when written using latin letters it's phonetic, because the language didn't develop using those letters. When they wanted to start writing Japanese using latin letters, they worked out a logical way of phonetically writing down the words, correct? At least that's what I always thought, not sure where I got the idea from though  ???

Aaah ok sorry I slightly misunderstood you.
Yeah I guess they did. But it still seems to me that it doesn't influence the easiness of the language when if comes to pronunciation. I just meant, like, you know how we French have hard "r"? Or Arabians have a sound that's like a deep throaty "cough"? Even writing those in a simpler, more phonetic way wouldn't help English speakers : you're just not used to those sounds.
I just meant that there is no such obstacle in japanese for French speakers. English is even much harder! With it's "th" and other tongue twisters!
Yah there's a difference between the spelling being logical, and it being easy to pronounce. Finnish has logical spelling, so any given combination of letters is always pronounced in the same way. English does not, so letter combinations can be pronounced in utterly different ways in different words, for example "tough" and "through". That means that I can look at a word written down in Finnish and know exactly how it should be pronounced, whereas in English you often just have to guess if you don't already know.

Pronunciation difficulty is an interesting one, most people find specific things difficult (and are often unable to even comprehend the sound they're missing). I'm lucky in that in almost every case I can hear a word and parrot it perfectly, so it sounds like I even have the same accent as the person speaking :D
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Offline ArcaneArtsVelho

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #220 on: March 19, 2015, 09:03:43 PM »
Finnish has logical spelling, so any given combination of letters is always pronounced in the same way.

To nitpick a little, that's not exactly how it is. Yes, Finnish is very regular with its spelling and pronunciation. BUT, there are exceptions.

Quick examples:
Sentence Tule pian (come soon) is pronounced more like Tulep pian (unless the speaker purposefully pauses between the words).
Then there is hauista. When you pronounce it, you can "hyphenate" it like hau-ista (from pikes), from root hauki (pike), or like ha-uista (from searches/lookups), from root haku (search/lookup).

Of course, there are more exceptions, but I'm too tired list all of them.  ;D
These exceptions are phonemic in nature but most of the time they are really hard to spot.


The R is rolled so some people transcript it as L.
I believe that in Japanese R and L are allophones. So, they are considered to be two variants of same phoneme. So, R can be pronounced L, and vice versa.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 09:10:38 PM by ArcaneArtsVelho »
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Offline Nora

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #221 on: March 19, 2015, 10:19:26 PM »

The R is rolled so some people transcript it as L.
I believe that in Japanese R and L are allophones. So, they are considered to be two variants of same phoneme. So, R can be pronounced L, and vice versa.

Well... I wouldn't know. There are no R and no L in the systems. Hiraganas and katanas only offer "n" besides the basic whatever-the-English-word-is for a, i, u, e, o.
I was never taught anything on that matter, besides the expected pronunciation of the characters that we write as "ra ri ru re ro"
The real subtleties comes from the difference between "biyoin" and "byoin". I don't remember if it's the exact words, but one means hair dresser and the other hospital. The teachers had a good laugh teaching is that. In Hiraganas the difference is hard to pick if you're not attentive.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

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Offline Elfy

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #222 on: March 19, 2015, 10:42:21 PM »
On the football thing. American football is often called gridiron elsewhere because of the shape of the field. What most of the rest of the world calls football is often called soccer in those countries (USA, Australia) where it's not the dominant code. What we play down in Australia is commonly referred to as 'footy', but it's proper name is Australian Rules Football, similar to how Gaelic Football is named, although it has a number of origins (soccer, rugby union and a game played by the local indigenous that they called marngrook), it's probably closer to Gaelic Football than anything else, to the extent that there's an annual tournament between Australian Rules players and Gaelic players which uses a hybrid version of the two games called International Rules. Then we come to rugby, which is also called rugby football. That name comes from the fact that William Webb Ellis picked up the ball and ran with it during a game of soccer at Rugby School in England (this probably never happened, but that's the legend and the trophy for winning the Rugby World Cup is named the William Webb Ellis Cup in memory of the sport's legendary origin and accidental founder). There are actually two types of rugby, union which was the original and had amateur status. Rugby League (the more popular of the two in Australia) began over a dispute over payments to players, and it's always been a professional sport, so tended to be seen more as the 'working man's game' than it's amateur counterpart which was played by people who could afford to do so. Over the years some of the rules have altered to make the games definitely different. People not from Australia often confuse Aussie Rules with rugby and it's one of the things that bugs southerners like myself, where Aussie Rules is the dominant code and rugby only has a toehold.
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #223 on: March 20, 2015, 03:04:55 AM »
Finnish has logical spelling, so any given combination of letters is always pronounced in the same way.

To nitpick a little, that's not exactly how it is. Yes, Finnish is very regular with its spelling and pronunciation. BUT, there are exceptions.

Quick examples:
Sentence Tule pian (come soon) is pronounced more like Tulep pian (unless the speaker purposefully pauses between the words).
Then there is hauista. When you pronounce it, you can "hyphenate" it like hau-ista (from pikes), from root hauki (pike), or like ha-uista (from searches/lookups), from root haku (search/lookup).

Of course, there are more exceptions, but I'm too tired list all of them.  ;D
These exceptions are phonemic in nature but most of the time they are really hard to spot.
Very interesting! I still think that they are far rarer in Finnish than in English - in English there are hundreds of them, whereas in Finnish it's usually safe to read phonetically  :P


On the football thing. American football is often called gridiron elsewhere because of the shape of the field. What most of the rest of the world calls football is often called soccer in those countries (USA, Australia) where it's not the dominant code. What we play down in Australia is commonly referred to as 'footy', but it's proper name is Australian Rules Football, similar to how Gaelic Football is named, although it has a number of origins (soccer, rugby union and a game played by the local indigenous that they called marngrook), it's probably closer to Gaelic Football than anything else, to the extent that there's an annual tournament between Australian Rules players and Gaelic players which uses a hybrid version of the two games called International Rules. Then we come to rugby, which is also called rugby football. That name comes from the fact that William Webb Ellis picked up the ball and ran with it during a game of soccer at Rugby School in England (this probably never happened, but that's the legend and the trophy for winning the Rugby World Cup is named the William Webb Ellis Cup in memory of the sport's legendary origin and accidental founder). There are actually two types of rugby, union which was the original and had amateur status. Rugby League (the more popular of the two in Australia) began over a dispute over payments to players, and it's always been a professional sport, so tended to be seen more as the 'working man's game' than it's amateur counterpart which was played by people who could afford to do so. Over the years some of the rules have altered to make the games definitely different. People not from Australia often confuse Aussie Rules with rugby and it's one of the things that bugs southerners like myself, where Aussie Rules is the dominant code and rugby only has a toehold.
Yeah you Aussies don't get off the hook for it either  :P

I'd never mistake an aussie rules pitch for a rugby pitch though, don't understand how that's possible. It's like mistaking a cricket pitch for a tennis court  :o
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 03:06:57 AM by Raptori »
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Miscellaneous Musings
« Reply #224 on: March 20, 2015, 04:31:36 AM »

Yeah you Aussies don't get off the hook for it either  :P

I'd never mistake an aussie rules pitch for a rugby pitch though, don't understand how that's possible. It's like mistaking a cricket pitch for a tennis court  :o
It's not the pitch, it's the entire sport that they get mixed up. Robin Williams did this monologue about Australian Rules, it was very funny, but to anybody who knows anything about Australian Rules it's quite obvious that what he was referring to was rugby, only he kept calling it Australian Football. Rugby rules in NSW and a good part of Queensland, but the rest of the country are Aussie Rules followers. We call rugby cross country wrestling.