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Author Topic: LGBT & Fantasy  (Read 19792 times)

Offline Nighteyes

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2012, 07:32:05 PM »
Hey, we are back here again!  Follow these two links for some rather engaging debate.

http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0

http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?topic=388.0

Last time it was slightly ruined by some nutjob screaming that Mark Charan Newton couldn't write a good LGBT character and anyone who thought otherwise was ignorant, but other than that it was quite fun!
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Offline Jian

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2012, 07:46:57 PM »
Well, it's lucky there was a new topic since I don't even see half of those users around anymore.  ;D

@Blendyface: Callie is awesome. That is all.

Oh, by the way, how are you taking the fact that Hound is no longer going to do 'weird', Hound? He and GRRM and that one about David Gemmell are the only ones you write articles about.  ;)
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Offline K.Trian

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 10:52:29 AM »
only modern cultures makes a big deal of it (ie it was accepted in the past cultures e.g. ancient Greeks).

Well, debetable. Depends on the culture. Maybe in ancient Greek/Rome in terms of pederastry, but through the medieval period in Europe, homosexuality was generally condemned (Sodom and Gomorrah, anyone?) .
When writing a medieval fantasy, if e.g. their religion resembles Christianity, the writer might want to be aware of the past they are influenced by while constructing a story about homosexuals.

As for modern cultures, do you mean post-Medieval? Well, if we now get eurocentric, and for a moment consider the whole Age of Reason that sorta kinda happened, certain phenomena became conceptualized and analyzed, is it any wonder we make "a big deal" out of homosexuality as well if we consider it a target for scientific interest (be it in sociology, history, gender studies, cultural studies, etc.) and how individualism/ individual identities/group identities have become quite prevalent in many Western cultures, it's kind of hard not to make a big deal out of it and in this regard, I don't see it as a negative thing (not saying you do).

Offline AnneLyle

Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 04:58:54 PM »
So, as readers of fantasy, have you encountered good/interesting portrayals of gay/bi/transgender characters? Or horrible ones? Or are they actually absent in the mainstream? If so, why?

I'm not sure what you mean by mainstream - the protagonist of Richard Morgan's fantasy series (The Steel Remains, The Cold Commands) is outspokenly gay, and another PoV is a lesbian. The main characters of Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner fantasy series are gay....I could go on.

However they're clearly not common in the most popular books, otherwise readers wouldn't keep posting these kind of questions on forums ;)

I'd also like to hear some input from writers: have you written a fantasy character who doesn't represent your own sexuality? How did that go? Were you attacked or praised for the effort?

Well, I've written several male characters who are gay or bi, so yes! Most people like what I've done with them - a few flakes took offence, but them's the breaks when you put your work out there. Perhaps it's worth mentioning that one of my beta-readers for Book 1 was a gay man, so I wasn't expecting a lot of flak anyway.
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Offline Francis Knight

Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 11:26:20 PM »
only modern cultures makes a big deal of it (ie it was accepted in the past cultures e.g. ancient Greeks).

Well, debetable. Depends on the culture. Maybe in ancient Greek/Rome in terms of pederastry, but through the medieval period in Europe, homosexuality was generally condemned (Sodom and Gomorrah, anyone?) .
When writing a medieval fantasy, if e.g. their religion resembles Christianity, the writer might want to be aware of the past they are influenced by while constructing a story about homosexuals.


Christianity changed a lot of things. In some pre Christian cultures homosexuality was fine - as long as  you were the *cough* man of the pairing (I think the Greek/Romans fell into this category, I'm not sure, but certainly others did, and there were some where it wasn't a problem really, as long as you produced an heir etc).

To be fair, if you're writing a mediaeval fantasy (based on Euro-Earth cultures) Christianity and its strength in the given society* is going to affect almost everything! 


*and if you think about it, plenty went on that was, strictly speaking, against Christian mores. Adultery was rife in many places/times and there's a commandment about that one! IIRC one of the first recorded instances of the F word was a monk writing about how the local wives liked to ....swive with them.

ETA: As for writing other sexualities - my current project will have a gay man as a POV. I'm not sure if counting a woman writing men who like women counts as a different sexuality! However, I think it needs a fair bit of thought to write something that is very different to yourself - there are issues that are offensive to say gay men that wouldn't occur to me (and may come from what I think is innocent wording. In this case, what I think is irrelevant - it's whether it is offensive to the people I am writing about).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:31:33 PM by Francis Knight »
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Offline jefGoelz

Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2012, 01:51:02 AM »
weren't the two main vampires in Interview w/ a Vampire gay?  There were certainly a lot of homoerotic overtones, but I didn't read the book.

I think there is a lot of revisionist history in this thread regarding homosexuality being more accepted in the past. I think it's more acceptable in the US and Western Europe currently than any civilization ever in the history of the world, but I may be wrong.

Regarding Richard Lionheart, the ONLY evidence was that he asked for forgiveness for sodomy before he died, but that term included oral or anal sex with partners of EITHER sex at that time.  Contemporary writers ran with it though--see "Lion in Winter".

Offline K.Trian

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2012, 12:08:35 PM »
ETA: As for writing other sexualities - my current project will have a gay man as a POV. I'm not sure if counting a woman writing men who like women counts as a different sexuality! However, I think it needs a fair bit of thought to write something that is very different to yourself - there are issues that are offensive to say gay men that wouldn't occur to me (and may come from what I think is innocent wording. In this case, what I think is irrelevant - it's whether it is offensive to the people I am writing about).
I also wrote a bisexual male character, and found it too easy to just go like "well, cos I like men, I'm sure it's the same!", but since male sexuality behaves somewhat differently, it did take some thought. However, it didn't even cross my mind to think whether some wording would offend gay/bi men! I wasn't set on bashing them (and I never will), so if someone somehow picked up something offensive from there, I'd apologize, thank them for taking the effort to read it, and then ask how it was offensive and whether they are on purpose reading the world as a huge anti-gay pamphlet (cos I know many gay men/women actually aren't...).
i guess my point is, I don't go like this bi-guy has to be a Gary Stu or else someone's gonna be offended... Again, not saying that's what Francis meant, just saying.
Regarding Richard Lionheart, the ONLY evidence was that he asked for forgiveness for sodomy before he died, but that term included oral or anal sex with partners of EITHER sex at that time.  Contemporary writers ran with it though--see "Lion in Winter".
Haha, I bet many men went to hell back then if they forgot to beg for forgiveness.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:24:21 PM by K.Trian »

Offline Francis Knight

Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2012, 01:41:36 PM »

i guess my point is, I don't go like this bi-guy has to be a Gary Stu or else someone's gonna be offended... Again, not saying that's what Francis meant, just saying.


Not what I meant at all! I just mean that when you do/write something, it pays to be a bit thoughtful about it - for me, it's not whether I would be offended (immaterial) but whether what I am doing/writing would be offensive to many, for instance, LGBTs (for instance, all your gay men are hugely camp paedophiles and all your lesbians are heartless butch warriors, and think about the language you use to talk about them). And think about why that might be, and whether I can, or should, change it. That doesn't mean Gary Stu at all. It basically means, think about it, remember just because it doesn't offend me/you/the author, doesn't mean it isn't offensive, even if it's unintentionally. Or that someone offended is wrong to be. Bascially try not to be a dick. That doesn't mean your character can't be a dick ;)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:47:01 PM by Francis Knight »
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Offline K.Trian

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2012, 01:55:23 PM »

i guess my point is, I don't go like this bi-guy has to be a Gary Stu or else someone's gonna be offended... Again, not saying that's what Francis meant, just saying.


Not what I meant at all! I just mean that when you do/write something, it pays to be a bit thoughtful about it - for me, it's not whether I would be offended (immaterial) but whether what I am doing/writing would be offensive to many, for instance, LGBTs (for instance, all your gay men are hugely camp paedophiles and all your lesbians are heartless butch warriors, and think about the language you use to talk about them). And think about why that might be, and whether I can, or should, change it. That doesn't mean Gary Stu at all. It basically means, think about it, remember just because it doesn't offend me/you/the author, doesn't mean it isn't offensive, even if it's unintentionally. Or that someone offended is wrong to be. Bascially try not to be a dick. That doesn't mean your character can't be a dick ;)
So the bottom line: when the author writes a character who doesn't represent their own sex, sexuality, race, what-have-you, the author should perhaps pay a bit more attention to the content so as not to appear a dick, i.e. offensive?

However, no matter how hard one tries, there will always, always be someone who gets offended. "Why is it a bi male who tortures a female prisoner??!11 You saying bi men are inherently evil cos they sleep with their own sex??!!1" while they may fail to wonder "why is there also a white female torturing a female prisoner?" To both of which the answer is: them torturing a prisoner has nothing to do with their sexual orientation or sexes, it's cos they are law enforcement officers allowed to use enhanced interrogation techniques.

Offline Francis Knight

Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2012, 02:08:41 PM »
Exactly - pay a bit more attention. I find it's the subtle stuff that trips me up*, every time, because it's subtle and I don't notice it until it;s pointed out! The same would probably go for your bi torturer - it might not be because he's a torturer, exactly, but something subtle that just puts teeth on edge. Find yourself a good crit partner, one you know isn't going to be offended for the sake of it but can point out those subtleties.

And yes, someone is always going to be offended. BUT do you want a large proportion of them to be?


*In the original post of this thread, you quoted me saying I thought that something was coming across wrong and offensive. The difference between I love Teflon Lesbian Snipers, and I love Teflon Snipers and I wrote one who happens to be a lesbian. The first is problematic, because by including lesbian between Teflon and Sniper you are including (or seeming to) lesbians in that thing, whereas in the second, you aren't (which is what I think you meant). Like I said, the subtleties. Also, the language we use - slut isn't a nice word to many women, so when you describe a character type (ie generalise) as Slut, well, you're going to put of people, same as if you described a black character by calling him an Uppity N word. Question is, do you want to put these people off by careless use of words when the right/more careful words wouldn't offend them and would still get your point across?

ETA: I'm just going to point out here that I'm not actually that into all the feminist politics - a lot of it makes me roll my eyes. But I do have a basic minimum below which I get ratty. The basic minimum is men and women are equal (if different), and should be treated as such, and some negative words which are used exclusively for women make me swear and wonder whether I've time warped back the Eighties.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 02:16:55 PM by Francis Knight »
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Offline K.Trian

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2012, 04:58:23 PM »
And yes, someone is always going to be offended. BUT do you want a large proportion of them to be?

*In the original post of this thread, you quoted me saying I thought that something was coming across wrong and offensive. The difference between I love Teflon Lesbian Snipers, and I love Teflon Snipers and I wrote one who happens to be a lesbian. The first is problematic, because by including lesbian between Teflon and Sniper you are including (or seeming to) lesbians in that thing, whereas in the second, you aren't (which is what I think you meant). Like I said, the subtleties.
Just a side note: I characterized this character as Lesbian Teflon Sniper / Teflon Lesbian Sniper to my lesbian friend and she 1) didn't find it offensive 2) thought the character sounds awesome. You know, just based on that. She said she couldn't make a judgment about the offensiveness without having actually read everything about the character in the novel.

Also, the language we use - slut isn't a nice word to many women, so when you describe a character type (ie generalise) as Slut, well, you're going to put of people, same as if you described a black character by calling him an Uppity N word. Question is, do you want to put these people off by careless use of words when the right/more careful words wouldn't offend them and would still get your point across?
I'm sensing a generation gap or something. Also, you aren't hinting 'slut' is equally offensive as the N word you didn't even write and that rhymes with 'migger,' are you? Okay, I'm totally cool with 'slut.' It's like 'stud.' Sure, I'm an EFL speaker, but I have and have had plenty of American/British friends who use it, many around my own age. Or perhaps I have a habit of surrounding myself with less sensitive people which means my usage of certain terms is perceived careless on a forum that hasn't showcased a strong air of political correctness so far (more like selective political correctness?) that, in turn, has gotten me somewhat confused about the level of sense of humor deemed acceptable here or the ability of people to gage relationships between, e.g. the context and the source of content.

ETA: I'm just going to point out here that I'm not actually that into all the feminist politics - a lot of it makes me roll my eyes. But I do have a basic minimum below which I get ratty. The basic minimum is men and women are equal (if different), and should be treated as such, and some negative words which are used exclusively for women make me swear and wonder whether I've time warped back the Eighties.
Well, we are here to discuss opinions, not just throw around Wikipedia facts, so thank you for this addition. We all have different limits, I suppose, based on our cultural background, social circles, education, experiences, etc. Some writer may be more sensitive about portraying a gay character than another just because their upbringing and/or education are different. Many feminist texts (really new ones too) I've found very hateful and paranoia-inducing, so I'm not a big fan either.

But if truth be told, many times when I or T. Trian have crafted a gay character, the sexual orientation hasn't played all that big a part, and the possible negative qualities of the character, like being teflon, have nothing to do with the orientation, and to think we are somehow... demonizing lesbians with "The Teflon* Lesbian Sniper," well, I get the feeling that clasping at the offensiveness tells more about the one seeing such negative meanings, than the ones writing the character. 

*Meaning a psychopath of the clinically diagnosed type instead of the teen horror-movie type i.e. a person who is truly incapable of experiencing emotions like empathy, pity, love etc. and has difficulties grasping concepts like honor or shame

Offline Francis Knight

Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2012, 06:18:13 PM »
Clasping at offensiveness? *snort*

Hardly. Just pointing out that perhaps you might have worded it differently, because what comes across IRL isn't how things come across in text, unless you are careful. But if you want to think I'm being offended for the sake of it, you go right ahead.

Over and out.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 06:20:17 PM by Francis Knight »
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Offline K.Trian

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2012, 06:54:15 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by mainstream - the protagonist of Richard Morgan's fantasy series (The Steel Remains, The Cold Commands) is outspokenly gay, and another PoV is a lesbian. The main characters of Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner fantasy series are gay....I could go on.

However they're clearly not common in the most popular books, otherwise readers wouldn't keep posting these kind of questions on forums ;)
I didn't define it on purpose because it seems to escape a clear definition, but it seems to be a consensus that LGBT isn't all that common in mainstream, e.g. here "Arguably one of the main issues hounding the progress and subsequent filtration of LGBT themes into “mainstream” SFF" (http://fantasy-faction.com/2012/not-done-needs-pics-the-evolution-of-sexuality-homosexuality-and-gender-in-sff-part-three).
An article series here at Fantasy Faction, actually. Anyway, hence the way I worded the question in the first post.

I'm also wondering, could there be sometimes some problems at taking a fantasy book with gay characters seriously? I mean, just wondering, don't wring my neck for saying it out loud. I just sometimes sense some connotations to e.g. slash fan fiction or some such. Plus there was this fairy lesbian book I checked which had the most retarded plot while the prose was pretty okay, but I think cos of the plot and characters it made me think of some fan fic like stuff which is sometimes difficult at least for me to consider 'serious' literature, and since I'm allergic to this Fifty Shades of Grey -like erotica (actually, to any erotica for that matter apart from the Story of O which surprisingly enough had other things too that happened to appeal to a reader like me), I didn't waste time with that fairy book either.

Offline blendyface

Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2012, 07:03:35 PM »
And yes, someone is always going to be offended. BUT do you want a large proportion of them to be?
*In the original post of this thread, you quoted me saying I thought that something was coming across wrong and offensive. The difference between I love Teflon Lesbian Snipers, and I love Teflon Snipers and I wrote one who happens to be a lesbian. The first is problematic, because by including lesbian between Teflon and Sniper you are including (or seeming to) lesbians in that thing, whereas in the second, you aren't (which is what I think you meant). Like I said, the subtleties.
Just a side note: I characterized this character as Lesbian Teflon Sniper / Teflon Lesbian Sniper to my lesbian friend and she 1) didn't find it offensive 2) thought the character sounds awesome. You know, just based on that. She said she couldn't make a judgment about the offensiveness without having actually read everything about the character in the novel.
Oh, son. You did not just use the "I have an X friend!" excuse. I agree, w/o context, your use of an actually recognised trope is nary impossible to analyse. That said, one lesbian friend does not a pass give (personal offense is a different kettle of fish, and to each their own).  There are p l e n t y of women in the world who give sexist fluff a pass, when really it is.

It would do you well to tone down the defensiveness, as you seem to have missed the part where real human feelings other than your own were involved. You can't start a thread with the veneer of having a real discussion, and then stick your fingers in your ears to avoid hearing things that make you uncomfortable. At the very least, it makes people unwilling to discuss honestly, and more than likely creates a hostile environment that any lgbt FF folks do not have the emotional energy to engage in.

Francis has a point I wish you'd appreciate - by including 'Lesbian' in your shorthand, you make the character's sexuality distinctive rather than just a characteristic like any other (afterall, you didn't say "Green-Eyed Teflon Sniper" or "Cat-owning Teflon Sniper"), or at the very least run the high risk of giving that impression. Nobody else magically made the connection. Hence the personal offense (please, stop and acknowledge this btw, ignoring this while being butthurt is not a good look), and the assumption that your characterisation was going to be homophobic. Gold star for effort with that deflection though! (aka the 'oh, maybe it's only a big deal to you because you're the bad guy!!'/'you're looking to be offended' argument).

Also, the language we use - slut isn't a nice word to many women, so when you describe a character type (ie generalise) as Slut, well, you're going to put of people, same as if you described a black character by calling him an Uppity N word. Question is, do you want to put these people off by careless use of words when the right/more careful words wouldn't offend them and would still get your point across?
I'm sensing a generation gap or something. Also, you aren't hinting 'slut' is equally offensive as the N word you didn't even write and that rhymes with 'migger,' are you? Okay, I'm totally cool with 'slut.' It's like 'stud.' Sure, I'm an EFL speaker, but I have and have had plenty of American/British friends who use it, many around my own age. Or perhaps I have a habit of surrounding myself with less sensitive people which means my usage of certain terms is perceived careless on a forum that hasn't showcased a strong air of political correctness so far (more like selective political correctness?) that, in turn, has gotten me somewhat confused about the level of sense of humor deemed acceptable here or the ability of people to gage relationships between, e.g. the context and the source of content.
Firstly: I do not care if you're cool with the word slut.  I don't give a flying fluff who you hang out with, you are categorically wrong. Slut and stud are not equivolents. Good for you, that you're one of those ~cool~ chicks throwing 'slut' around - your business. I'm presuming, of course, that you restrict its usage to the people who you know are cool with it, and that you don't refer to women you don't know as sluts. Let's put it like this: any woman who I don't know, wants to seriously call me a slut? Will get the dressing down of their goddamn lives*. So don't dictate to any other woman how they should react or feel about it, or put on some superior nonsense about PC (not caring about the offence you cause others is the easiest thing in the world, it's not especially difficult/unusual). Given the flippancy with which you regard your language, and how you would rather huff-puff than give any ground, I wonder why you are surprised people might approach what you say with cynicism. You've burnt through my benefit of the doubt rather rapidly.

Secondly, as a general note: I, personally, do not hold 'slut' and the n-word in the same realm at all (although sexism and racism operate in similar structures), and prefer not to equivocate terms I haven't been at the end of.

And finally: I'd be greatful for the patience and care with which you have been treated thus far. Given the fact you and your similarly titled friend have been trying to play like you give a single fluff, whilst throwing out many ill-disguised barbs, I would not have been as good a person about it.  ::)

*jokingly employed, if this person has had no way of establishing my boundries, she will get a side-eye with a generous side-order of judgement, idgafluff.

Offline K.Trian

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Re: LGBT & Fantasy
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2012, 07:30:13 PM »
@blendyface: I apologize for, I don't know, crawling under your skin so that I was worth such a long (and, ahem, educational) post while it did get me thinking 'duh' and 'wow, she's wee off the mark on several occasions there.' Also, it's difficult to exchange opinions and views if the fellow participants consider a lot of it is about the one expressing them instead of the subject matter. In which case you can forget about that defensiveness talk, imo.

I see no point in extending this argumentation here because it would go too much off-topic. You've had your say about what I do wrong/what irks you/what-have-you in public (like what you care about and don't... hm...)

But I can comment briefly on the offence-factor as it's somewhat related to this thread:
Yup, I pointed out there too that I don't consider 'slut' and 'the-N-word-that-must-not-be-named' equally offensive. I also explained there why I wouldn't go 'omg, offensive' on this forum about the usage of 'slut' in the context of a character type. Cos the word's offensiveness has been watered down in my little world.
It's also a given one person can't represent a whole group (this is where the 'duh' came from), but I had to use the friend-excuse (?) here cos I found it interesting when I asked about it from her and thought to share it (mistake) while not attempting to prove Francis wrong (because she was right and had a point... um, obviously).

Seriously, why all the negativity?

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