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Author Topic: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies  (Read 14262 times)

Offline Nighteyes

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2015, 04:38:37 PM »
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2015, 11:48:44 PM »
I really liked the Marko Kloos books - I read them both through the Kindle Lending Library earlier this year. I didn't think the second one was as good as the first one, so it missed out on my nomination for best novel, but I did back Kloos for the Campbell.

The fact that they have backed some decent works doesn't really excuse the way they've gone about it, and might actually end up doing more harm than good to their favoured few.
And that is part of the problem. From what I know Kloos was unaware that he was on their slate. From what little I know about Marko, he's on the opposite side of the political spectrum from SP. They'd probably deride him as an SJW if they became aware of it.
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Offline Nora

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 01:16:04 AM »
Wow.

I tried to get a hang of this controversy, even read that last GRRM link. Still can't get anything beyond "guys with stupid name lobby for this" vs "guys with stupider name lobby for this instead" lined by some "everybody forgot to read stuff".

Politics always get into stuff. I don't see the point of making such a fuss. Maybe those awards are just not designed to sustain such numbers and pressure. Maybe they'll collapse and we'll get a better award system. Hopefully.
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Offline JMack

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 01:18:45 AM »
I really liked the Marko Kloos books - I read them both through the Kindle Lending Library earlier this year. I didn't think the second one was as good as the first one, so it missed out on my nomination for best novel, but I did back Kloos for the Campbell.

The fact that they have backed some decent works doesn't really excuse the way they've gone about it, and might actually end up doing more harm than good to their favoured few.
And that is part of the problem. From what I know Kloos was unaware that he was on their slate. From what little I know about Marko, he's on the opposite side of the political spectrum from SP. They'd probably deride him as an SJW if they became aware of it.
Another vote for enjoying Mario Kloos. I went on a kick and red his two, the two Ancillary novels and the entire smiles Vorkosigan saga, plus the two most recent Expanse novels. Then discovered F-F and put aside SF for now.  ;D
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2015, 01:30:05 AM »
I really liked the Marko Kloos books - I read them both through the Kindle Lending Library earlier this year. I didn't think the second one was as good as the first one, so it missed out on my nomination for best novel, but I did back Kloos for the Campbell.

The fact that they have backed some decent works doesn't really excuse the way they've gone about it, and might actually end up doing more harm than good to their favoured few.
And that is part of the problem. From what I know Kloos was unaware that he was on their slate. From what little I know about Marko, he's on the opposite side of the political spectrum from SP. They'd probably deride him as an SJW if they became aware of it.
Another vote for enjoying Mario Kloos. I went on a kick and red his two, the two Ancillary novels and the entire smiles Vorkosigan saga, plus the two most recent Expanse novels. Then discovered F-F and put aside SF for now.  ;D
You read the entire Vorkosigan saga? That's impressive. 3 of those have won Hugos, and Lois McMaster Bujold picked up a 4th rocketship for The Paladin of Souls, a fantasy novel, the sequel to The Curse of Chalion. 4 wins actually puts her equal with Heinlein.
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Offline cupiscent

Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2015, 04:10:10 AM »
From what I know Kloos was unaware that he was on their slate. From what little I know about Marko, he's on the opposite side of the political spectrum from SP. They'd probably deride him as an SJW if they became aware of it.

Which is interesting, because Torgersen was apparently claiming that everyone nominated - or at least everyone on the best novel category list - was contacted and explicitly agreed to be involved. (Note: I haven't found him actually saying this, but I've been reading comments on Scalzi's blog where what seem to be Puppy-involved or -related people attribute the claim to him and stand by it. So I'm just not sure.)

Offline AzWingsFan

Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2015, 10:15:55 AM »
A good summary of awards controversy:
http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/the-gemmell-awards.html

Please don't quote Mark Lawrence! That guy has too much spare time on his hands. He probably worked out the email addresses of everyone who voted against him and personally emailed them to ask why they didn't vote for his books. (Probably accusing them of being in the political correctness brigade.)



Dafuq??? More often than not he makes entirely valid points.

On related note, opposite of the sad puppy morons it is ludicrous that Leckie among others got nominated and City of Stairs or The Emperors Blades didn't. Insane. That right there discounts that useless award.
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Offline JMack

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2015, 01:05:23 PM »
Hi, @AzWingsFan.
I'm not going to weigh in too much on this or that author's behavior etc.
But, since we're all here to discuss and debate  ;D

Have to agree that Ancillary Sword is not nearly as good as the first, which I think was pretty brilliant. Though I did find the gender stuff much less interesting than the clone mind stuff.

emperor's Blades? Really? I'm listening to it now, and it's got a lot of good qualities but a lot a lot a lot of writing problems. Plus, I guess I'm really tired of the whole "assassins are cool" shtick in SFF and any other genre.

So I'm not ready to torpedo a long standing award over inclusion of a flawed but fascinating book or the exclusion of a flawed but exciting book. It does make for great debate candy, though, doesn't it?  ;)
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Offline Justan Henner

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2015, 05:53:39 PM »
And this is why democracy doesn't work. Quick, let's tear it all down!

N... No? Just me? Fine, I'll go back to my corner.  :(

Offline Elfy

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2015, 12:44:27 AM »
From what I know Kloos was unaware that he was on their slate. From what little I know about Marko, he's on the opposite side of the political spectrum from SP. They'd probably deride him as an SJW if they became aware of it.

Which is interesting, because Torgersen was apparently claiming that everyone nominated - or at least everyone on the best novel category list - was contacted and explicitly agreed to be involved. (Note: I haven't found him actually saying this, but I've been reading comments on Scalzi's blog where what seem to be Puppy-involved or -related people attribute the claim to him and stand by it. So I'm just not sure.)
Torgersen has said a lot of things in regards to that, that have been disputed later on.
I will expand your TBR pile.

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Offline Steerpike

Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2015, 04:19:33 PM »
There has been a few reasonable voices on the topic, making some points on either side. Most of the commentary on the subject seems more to fan the flames than anything. I appreciate GRRM's thorough and reasonable approach to the issue.

Offline Rostum

Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2015, 05:09:27 PM »
I have read through this thread to hopefully get some understanding of the latest drama. There seems to be some every year. It is always caused by a vocal minority. The voice of reason is legion on the subject yet history will repeat itself. I have not read anything by a certain author since they made certain comments a couple of years ago. So all this angst can really cause damage albeit in tiny incriments.
In truth most of the Hugo and Nebula winners I read as a teenager were picked up in cut price bookshops a while after publication date. Probably because as soon as they won another print was run which didn't sell.

I feel very sad for the award and this years winners as everyone will be living under the question of whether they only won because or despite....[insert gender/race/sexuality and whatever else can be brought to play]
which has nothing to do with how good a writer or how wonderful their ideas are.

Offline Arry

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2015, 01:19:24 AM »
And if you're not tired of it yet, Scalzi added his thoughts:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2015/04/20/keeping-up-with-the-hugos-42015/
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Offline cupiscent

Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2015, 03:50:41 AM »
Probably also good to note that Kloos, who we were discussing, has withdrawn from the final ballot: http://file770.com/?p=21908

While I'm dropping links, Eric Flint (who I've never heard of, though he seems to have a healthy career; is he not published in the UK/Aust markets?) has some extensive but very interesting comments on the whole thing: http://www.ericflint.net/index.php/2015/04/16/some-comments-on-the-hugos-and-other-sf-awards/
(I particularly found interesting his notes on how much bigger the genre is now than it used to was.)

Offline Elfy

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Re: Hugo Awards 2015 Controversy & Sad Puppies
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2015, 03:55:16 AM »
Probably also good to note that Kloos, who we were discussing, has withdrawn from the final ballot: http://file770.com/?p=21908

While I'm dropping links, Eric Flint (who I've never heard of, though he seems to have a healthy career; is he not published in the UK/Aust markets?) has some extensive but very interesting comments on the whole thing: http://www.ericflint.net/index.php/2015/04/16/some-comments-on-the-hugos-and-other-sf-awards/
(I particularly found interesting his notes on how much bigger the genre is now than it used to was.)
Eric Flint writes SF and fantasy with a military slant mostly, he collaborates a lot. Probably best known for his involvement with the 1632 series. That's published by Baen, and I think some of his other work is too. They don't have a huge presence down here, but you can find them on the shelves in bricks and mortar stores. Eric's a very straight talker. I quite enjoyed a panel he did at Worldcon a few years ago, he looks a bit like Danny De Vito, actually.
I will expand your TBR pile.

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