October 16, 2019, 01:36:02 PM

Author Topic: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations  (Read 16024 times)

Offline Lanko

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Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2016, 06:43:21 PM »
Lanko, your post reads like you're accusing us of lying. Please clarify whether that was your intention.

"Us" who? And what part are you referring to exactly?
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Offline Eclipse

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Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2016, 06:51:18 PM »
 I think maybe its time both of you need to take a step back from this topic for a bit,.don't get frustrated as then your posts don't look polite.

Thank you to all the posters in this topic , it got me thinking on both sides
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 07:07:08 PM by Eclipse »
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Offline JMack

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Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2016, 06:52:39 PM »
This ^
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Offline Lanko

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Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2016, 07:16:50 PM »
For clarification, I wasn't calling anyone a liar.

If the part about "someone making stuff up" was what triggered that, it was about this post:

it *ought* to be irrelevant, i agree. But I find that if there's a list of say, ten best fantasy books of 2016 and you ask the author of that list why it's ten male authors on the list, he'll say "I don't think about gender". Which is why we still need to talk about gender. :)

Guy simply thrown it out there without even providing some respectable list for the claim.
Then 5 minutes later we return with the most popular list voted on the Internet and we find out it's actually 9:1 to female authors, on both Fantasy and YA Fantasy.
And now? The awesome results obtained from women were the product of readers simply voting on stuff they enjoyed? Or we apply the same logic and think that such vast majority is only because people thought about their gender?

I just felt it was very inappropriate to apply that line of thinking to both genders to "explain" their success or a majority in some list. Or that female authors may need extra help to obtain results instead of their own effort and work. And as the results showed, in GR and in other popular awards, that they clearly didn't need it.

Just that.
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Offline cupiscent

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2016, 07:47:56 PM »
For the final time, because seriously, I have to stop beating my head against this discussion:

I don't think quotas are appropriate or helpful.

I do think it would be good if everyone - myself included - gave a moment's extra thought when making recommendations as to whether there were awesome female authors who should be included.

That's it. That's all.

Offline Peat

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2016, 07:53:07 PM »
Lanko - Okay, my bad, I thought that was more aimed at me than it was. Thanks for the clarification.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2016, 11:19:03 PM »
Quote
For the final time, because seriously, I have to stop beating my head against this discussion:

I don't think quotas are appropriate or helpful.

I do think it would be good if everyone - myself included - gave a moment's extra thought when making recommendations as to whether there were awesome female authors who should be included.

That's it. That's all.

Why?

Just to keep the circular argument going (because saying the same thing over is so fulfilling) . If I am asked for my opinion on what to read I will give it. It is my opinion that is all(not some patriarchal plot to ignore female authors.) If I am asked for a specific type of book such as high fantasy, Grimdark or whatever again I will give it. Anything else would not be my opinion and would be dishonest. I am sure that recommending the best books that come to mind is more important than who wrote them, but feel free to recommend who you like. That after all would be you expressing your opinion.

Offline cupiscent

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2016, 11:25:16 PM »
Quote
For the final time, because seriously, I have to stop beating my head against this discussion:

I don't think quotas are appropriate or helpful.

I do think it would be good if everyone - myself included - gave a moment's extra thought when making recommendations as to whether there were awesome female authors who should be included.

That's it. That's all.

Why?

Why not? It's a moment of your time. You really can't spare it to make sure you're not absentmindedly leaving off someone awesome?

Offline Nora

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Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2016, 11:56:01 PM »
Quote
For the final time, because seriously, I have to stop beating my head against this discussion:

I don't think quotas are appropriate or helpful.

I do think it would be good if everyone - myself included - gave a moment's extra thought when making recommendations as to whether there were awesome female authors who should be included.

That's it. That's all.

Why?

Why not? It's a moment of your time. You really can't spare it to make sure you're not absentmindedly leaving off someone awesome?

I think this crystalises the problem. You see someone (most likely a woman) being left off.

We see a book.

If someone asked me for great high fantasy books that aren't a medieval or full of tropey creatures, and I forgot to mention Jones for Castle in the Air, you would think "tssk, a female author that gets forgotten", while I'd think "shit, how could I have forgotten Castle in the Air?"

I forget to recommend awesome books all the time. I'm human, my memory is imperfect. Chances are I also sometimes neglect male authors. But since there are more of them, maybe we'll never notice that on paper.
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Offline Peat

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2016, 04:29:16 AM »
And I believe on this forum we all read different stuff and read widely that's why our recommendations are not just the same five on this forum.


If we did have a 5 here it probably be

Scott Lynch
Robin Hobb
Jen Williams
Scott Lynch
Scott Lynch

Idle point in passing - my early lazy count on incomplete numbers gives (in ascending order)

Hobb (9)
Lynch (9)
Pratchett (11)
Sullivan (11)
Sanderson (11)

Williams pings pretty highly but I cba to work out how many of those are Jen and how many of those are Tad (and I think there's another one or two). I should probably check if there's another Sullivan but that can wait until I've completed the research. Also - that's 11 out of 30. Doesn't look like there's a universal answer on this forum.

Small prize to anyone who can guess the 5 most recommended females in this particular sample  :P

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Offline cupiscent

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2016, 04:34:04 AM »
So take another moment to think if there's any awesome male authors you've left off. Hell, I would be delighted if people would also take a third moment to consider specifically whether they've left off any awesome writers of colour.

Let's just not leave awesome people off. What's the big deal?


...though since we're here and I have this thread open in another tab: No one's mentioned Diana Wynne Jones in the fantasy-setting-other-than-medieval-europe thread. ;)

Offline Peat

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2016, 04:45:40 AM »
Be fair now. I imagine most people here take a moment or two to think of as much awesome as they can when suggesting anything here, if only to show off just how much they know about awesome.

And anyone who simply spouts the first names to enter their head and never think about it again ain't never gonna think about it.

That's the problem with suggesting we think harder with our recommendations, now I dwell on it. People are probably doing all the thinking on this they can.
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Offline Eclipse

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Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2016, 05:36:12 AM »
And I believe on this forum we all read different stuff and read widely that's why our recommendations are not just the same five on this forum.


If we did have a 5 here it probably be

Scott Lynch
Robin Hobb
Jen Williams
Scott Lynch
Scott Lynch

Idle point in passing - my early lazy count on incomplete numbers gives (in ascending order)

Hobb (9)
Lynch (9)
Pratchett (11)
Sullivan (11)
Sanderson (11)

Williams pings pretty highly but I cba to work out how many of those are Jen and how many of those are Tad (and I think there's another one or two). I should probably check if there's another Sullivan but that can wait until I've completed the research. Also - that's 11 out of 30. Doesn't look like there's a universal answer on this forum.

Small prize to anyone who can guess the 5 most recommended females in this particular sample  :P


Williams
Hobb
Bach/AAron ( think she's got 3 alias)
Weis
Le Guin
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 05:38:39 AM by Eclipse »
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Offline stevenpoore

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Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2016, 06:15:03 AM »
For clarification, I wasn't calling anyone a liar.

If the part about "someone making stuff up" was what triggered that, it was about this post:

it *ought* to be irrelevant, i agree. But I find that if there's a list of say, ten best fantasy books of 2016 and you ask the author of that list why it's ten male authors on the list, he'll say "I don't think about gender". Which is why we still need to talk about gender. :)

Guy simply thrown it out there without even providing some respectable list for the claim.
On the one hand, reasonable point. On the other hand, on the previous page you go so far as saying
 
Quote
- People even made stuff up like "there is only 10 white males at every Best Fantasy 2016 lists top 10 out there!"


which is not what I said at all. Since you insist, here's the list I was looking at. There's only seven nominees, so feel free to move the goalposts.
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Offline Peat

Re: Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2016, 06:32:52 AM »
And I believe on this forum we all read different stuff and read widely that's why our recommendations are not just the same five on this forum.


If we did have a 5 here it probably be

Scott Lynch
Robin Hobb
Jen Williams
Scott Lynch
Scott Lynch

Idle point in passing - my early lazy count on incomplete numbers gives (in ascending order)

Hobb (9)
Lynch (9)
Pratchett (11)
Sullivan (11)
Sanderson (11)

Williams pings pretty highly but I cba to work out how many of those are Jen and how many of those are Tad (and I think there's another one or two). I should probably check if there's another Sullivan but that can wait until I've completed the research. Also - that's 11 out of 30. Doesn't look like there's a universal answer on this forum.

Small prize to anyone who can guess the 5 most recommended females in this particular sample  :P


Williams
Hobb
Bach/AAron ( think she's got 3 alias)
Weis
Le Guin

2/5. I didn't even know Aaron had multiple aliases.

Number 5 felt like a curveball to me.
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