Do we recommend enough female authors when asked for recommendations

[Roelor]

Again I disagree. Yes, maybe a headstart. But we can expect, and hope that those who are suggesting reads, aren't suggesting standard reads that are already established and therefore no longer need more promotion. If people ask me what to read, I think it's silly to recommend Tolkien, Jordan or all of those. No, we should aim to suggest new, good stories.

So, to take your metaphore. Is it more equal to put that female that was pushed back before, now 82 meters in the headstart? No. It's still based on skill. So you put those athletes at the same line, cause you want equality. Inequality in the name of equality is unfair aswell. It puts new, male authors in a disadvantage as well? Historical facts don't matter, its not relevant to the skill of storytelling. In case a female author writes a good story, that story WILL be picked up and promoted. Same with the guys...

I see this argument everywhere, where cause of perceived (I don't say that for this case, but in some cases just saying a female is at a disadvantage is enough to take matters) unequality in history, we should now bear inequality for the sake of equality. That's absolutely insane. I know this is hot in the US right now, but it's absolutely insane. If you want equality, make it equal. You have to compare the current situation for a starting male and a female. NOT the starting position of a female, compared to already established and well known writers.

So what we actually should be questioning is: Should we recommend older books and tomes, based on them being established or should we give ALL new authors (both male and female) a chance to make it on these lists. With the suggestions I see here, only new female authors would make it between the already established names and the new male authors have NO chance to get there, cause of that inequality for the sake of equality.

This will cause an even worse predicament in the future. It sets the bar even MORE crooked. Yes, equality will need to take its course in time. NOT be forced by putting yet again another demographic in a disadvantaged position... If you extrapolate this to other aspects of society, where this is happening at an alarming rate, we are moving toward a completely skewed reality where opressed become opressors and the cycle will continue..

It's already happening. Why else would the US elections have gone as such. It's a direct result of the unfairness in the name of fairness. Therefore, we should say NO to inequality in the name of equality..

[tebakutis]

I see this argument everywhere, where cause of perceived (I don't say that for this case, but in some cases just saying a female is at a disadvantage is enough to take matters) unequality in history, we should now bear inequality for the sake of equality. That's absolutely insane.  I know this is hot in the US right now, but it's absolutely insane. If you want equality, make it equal.

I think you're still interpreting this differently that I (and many others intend). You may be seeing it as a request for permanent inequality in favor of female authors - basically, a call to say "We should, forever more, promote female authors ahead of male authors, in perpetuity, because we once discriminated against them." And I agree, that's a very easy argument to strongly argue against! But that's not what's being said.

What I'm saying is, there needs to be a correction period, and we need to recognize that we are still in that correction period. And all that correction period consists of is being mindful. I'm not saying "You should discriminate against male authors because we used to discriminate against female authors" which, again, is an easy argument to rail against (but is not the argument I'm making). I'm saying "We should keep in mind that female authors were discriminated against for a long time, and so take a little extra time to check our own biases and make sure we aren't being influenced by that past discrimination".

For instance, you mention Tolkein, Jordan, and all of those as "classic" authors. How many of those classic authors are male? If you look back, I bet you'd find the majority are, even though there were plenty of females writing at the same time that have now been effectively forgotten.

So again, this isn't (as many mistakenly believe) a call to discriminate against men. It's a call to consciously take a look at your own biases, and make a little extra effort to make sure you *are* treating female authors equally, because we haven't historically done so in the past.

You have to understand the argument you are arguing against before arguing against it.

[Lanko]

Thinking that women (or men) are under represented in certain genres only because of bias, sexism, bigotry and etc is an extremely biased and unhealthy view on the world.

Absolutely. But asserting that gender bias, whether conscious or unconscious, has absolutely nothing to do with the representation of genders in any genre seems naive. And while there are many, many factors at play that we can do nothing or very little about, we can think about and gently challenge gender bias in ourselves and other readers.

So do we throw up our hands, say "Oh well, too many things that I can't control, why bother?" Or do we do what little we can to make the world just a tiny bit fairer?

I was 99% sure before I went to sleep that someone was gonna put that into my mouth.

OK. So: why aren't we seeing more female authors on recommendation lists of speculative fiction?

it *ought* to be irrelevant, i agree. But I find that if there's a list of say, ten best fantasy books of 2016 and you ask the author of that list why it's ten male authors on the list, he'll say "I don't think about gender". Which is why we still need to talk about gender.

I'm amazed how far people go to defend the tower from falling.

Using the list on GR, there's actually 9 female and 1 male on the final round (technically 2 since Ilona are a couple).
Oh no, it's not equal! Such disparity can only be because of gender bias, sexism, misandry, etc etc, it can't be because of sales, quality or reader enjoyment!
There are plenty of lists with all kinds of female authors and writing styles.

*Sigh*

Information and events keep passing by, but they don't see it - or refuse to see it - as what they really want to do is keep staring at their massive echo chamber going on above the clouds.
That's what they want to see and to keep believing.

Even during the 70s and 80s, when SF/F was considered "stuff for children", there was still Ursula LeGuin, Elizabeth Moon, Octavia Butler and many others who had audiences, won awards and didn't hide their names.

But there's still people who despite seeing those examples, still think they always have a dark cloud over their heads.

Again, the reason is simple: if they, or what they believe (or are led to believe) is hurt or insulted, or if they feel like victims, then they have someone else to blame, and in their view, they are no longer responsible for their failures or poor achievements.
So if they fail or do poorly,  it can't be because of the quality, of if the readers enjoyed, or anything else. It can only be because of bias, sexism, past prejudice, be some of it real or imaginary.

And they are no longer responsible for their job performance, for wanting to improve and to be the best they can be, and ultimately that will result in their overall failure (which they will, of course, blame on others), and this feeling is used to justify wrong-doings and to rationalize double standards.

[cupiscent]

Thinking that women (or men) are under represented in certain genres only because of bias, sexism, bigotry and etc is an extremely biased and unhealthy view on the world.

Absolutely. But asserting that gender bias, whether conscious or unconscious, has absolutely nothing to do with the representation of genders in any genre seems naive. And while there are many, many factors at play that we can do nothing or very little about, we can think about and gently challenge gender bias in ourselves and other readers.

So do we throw up our hands, say "Oh well, too many things that I can't control, why bother?" Or do we do what little we can to make the world just a tiny bit fairer?

I was 99% sure before I went to sleep that someone was gonna put that into my mouth.

So... I don't understand. If there is any gender bias in action, and you believe that it is an element, why aren't we working (in this instance, with our recommendations and thinking about whether there are women authors who should be included) to deconstruct it?

As tebakutis said, this isn't about discriminating against men. It's not about promoting gender over quality. It's about thinking about our recommendations, and taking just a moment to consider if there are awesome women authors who could also be included.

I'm also not sure that the GoodReads readers' choice list is a good example of equality. There's already been a discussion regarding whether at least half of those female-authored examples should even be included in the genre. (I'd be more precise on the numbers, but GR seem to have taken the lists down for final tallying.)

[Nora]

Over 2 000 books to browse in this one :

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/147.Best_Kick_Ass_Female_Characters_From_YA_and_Children_s_Fantasy_and_Science_Fiction

Over 4 000 in this one :

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/26495.Best_Women_authored_Books



https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/6934.Science_Fiction_Books_by_Female_Authors

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/2552.Best_Sci_Fi_Books_with_Female_Main_Characters

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/18450.Fantasy_Sci_Fi_Books_with_Strong_Female_Characters

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1226.Best_Feminist_Science_Fiction_Fantasy

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/21031.Books_Touted_as_Having_Strong_Female_Leads_That_Actually_Make_Feminists_Roll_in_Their_Graves

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/73078.Diversity_in_Fantasy_and_Science_Fiction

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/78187.Girls_With_Guns_Military_Space_Opera_Starring_Female_Soldiers

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/13889.Heroine_starring_fantasy_sci_fi_dystopia_modern_fantasy_etc_books_with_a_hint_or_more_of_romance_

That's from scouring 10 pages of list on GR, while using "scifi" as a genre keyword. Oddly enough in 10 pages, not a single list showed up called "by male authors" or "starring male MCs". Is it that we assume everything else is, or it would look bad, or it's not required by any subgroup?

[Lanko]

Thinking that women (or men) are under represented in certain genres only because of bias, sexism, bigotry and etc is an extremely biased and unhealthy view on the world.

Absolutely. But asserting that gender bias, whether conscious or unconscious, has absolutely nothing to do with the representation of genders in any genre seems naive. And while there are many, many factors at play that we can do nothing or very little about, we can think about and gently challenge gender bias in ourselves and other readers.

So do we throw up our hands, say "Oh well, too many things that I can't control, why bother?" Or do we do what little we can to make the world just a tiny bit fairer?

I was 99% sure before I went to sleep that someone was gonna put that into my mouth.

So... I don't understand. If there is any gender bias in action, and you believe that it is an element, why aren't we working (in this instance, with our recommendations and thinking about whether there are women authors who should be included) to deconstruct it?

As tebakutis said, this isn't about discriminating against men. It's not about promoting gender over quality. It's about thinking about our recommendations, and taking just a moment to consider if there are awesome women authors who could also be included.

I'm also not sure that the GoodReads readers' choice list is a good example of equality. There's already been a discussion regarding whether at least half of those female-authored examples should even be included in the genre. (I'd be more precise on the numbers, but GR seem to have taken the lists down for final tallying.)

Goodreads is the largest reading community in the world. 4 million votes were cast in it's award contest. And in such an extremely large contest, the Fantasy category has 9 female authors in the Top 10.
Why this isn't a viable list? Honestly, what else do you want? All 10 finalists to be female? Or all 20 semifinalists?
But I agree the final round isn't a good example of equality, after all, there's only one male  (or two, since Ilona Andrews are a couple).

Here is the list of the 10 titles while they still process votes:

Spoiler for Hiden:

- All the Birds in the Sky by Charlie Jane Anders
- Magic Binds by Ilona Andrews
- Marked in Flesh by Anne Bishop
- Fire Touched by Patricia Briggs
- The Bird and the Sword by Amy Harmon
- The Curse of the Tenth Grave by Darynda Jones
- Feverborn by Karen Marie Moning
- Harry Potter and the Cursed Child by J.K. Rowling
- The Bands of Mourning by Brandon Sanderson
- A Gathering of Shadows by V.E. Schwab

Picture:

Spoiler for Hiden:

And the other 10 semi finalists included 3 more women:

Spoiler for Hiden:

- Every Heart a Doorway, by Seanan McGuire
- The Obelisk Gate, by N. K. Jemisin
- Vampire Girl, by Karpov Kinrade (another couple)

The interesting thing is that there was a debate on another thread regarding Paranormal Romance being on Fantasy.
We even agreed PNR (at least one of them) would fit better in the Romance category (since a book can only be in one category, save for Debut Author), and then we complain about lists not featuring more Fantasy by women and we see two of them (Jemisin, no less) getting buried below 3 PNR blockbusters. Categorizing incorrectly could actually have punished some authors who could have used a bit more recognition, both male and female.

If we go to YA Science Fiction and Fantasy there's once again 9 females and 1 male author:

Spoiler for Hiden:

In the Awards of 2015 there were 7 female authors in the Top 10. 4 males technically because of Ilona. And in the other 10 semifinalists, 5 more females.

The Fantasy Faction Top 50 of 2015 has 19 women (38%) with one author unidentified. And the winner was a woman (Novik). And the top 10 of that list has 6 women.
Curiously, some books that appeared in GR didn't appear in FF (and vice-versa). Gaiman for example, won in GR and didn't even make Top 50. Or maybe they excluded him because that book was a collection of short stories and not a novel. And Uprooted was in YA Fantasy in GR.

And even more curious, let's look at the list for this year's Science Fiction, considered by the towering echo chamber the most machist, biased, sexist, etc etc:

Spoiler for Hiden:

- Morning Star by Pierce Brown
- Dark Matter by Blake Crouch
- Bloodline by Claudia Gray
- A Murder in Time by Julie McElwain
- Sleeping Giants by Sylvain Neuvel
- The Last One by Alexandra Olivia
- The Long Cosmos by Terry Pratchett & Stephen Baxter
- Lies, Damned Lies, and History by Jodi Taylor
- Crosstalk by Connie Willis
- Underground Airlines by Ben H. Winters

Oh, look. Does it appear to have at least 5 female authors on the Top 10 of SF? Possibly 6?

And all this without anyone forcing anything down anyone's throat.

But I guess it's just easier for some to keep shouting and shouting the same song from the top of their echo chamber that there is only 10 white males at every top 10 list...

Well, do those lists sound reasonable?

[The Gem Cutter]

Oddly enough in 10 pages, not a single list showed up called "by male authors" or "starring male MCs". Is it that we assume everything else is, or it would look bad, or it's not required by any subgroup?

Man, I'm hosed. I'm just a dude with a dude protag. I hope I make it to the books where my female char comes into the spotlight!

[tebakutis]

Oh, look. Does it appear to have at least 5 female authors on the Top 10 of SF? Possibly 6?

And all this without anyone forcing anything down anyone's throat.

But I guess it's just easier for some to keep shouting and shouting the same song from the top of their echo chamber that there is only 10 white males at every top 10 list...

Well, do those lists sound reasonable?

Okay, now I'm totally confused. :0

Maybe I'm not following the thread as closely as I should, but it sounds like you're still making an argument that we shouldn't discriminate against male authors in order to promote female authors. Didn't we already all say that's the case? No one is saying we should discriminate against male authors to promote females. Everyone agrees that's a terrible idea, and definitely not equal treatment.

Essentially, no one in this thread is trying force anything down anyone's throat.

The only real suggestion I've read here is that because, historically, female authors in sci-fi and other fields were set aside to actively promote male authors (and as many have pointed out, that has changed in the years since, as evidenced by their success!) there may still be many female authors who aren't nearly as well known as their male contemporaries, even though their work may be just as good.

So we should remember that's the case and, when we recommend authors, ask ourselves ... are we considering everyone, equally? Or only the primarily male authors who have historically been promoted over female authors who might not have been? Are there female authors we're forgetting about, or might never have heard of because they weren't promoted?

In summary:

I don't see anyone saying "Recommend authors just because they are female".

I don't see anyone saying "Don't recommend male authors".

I also don't see anyone saying "It's bad to like male authors. Like female authors instead".

Finally, I don't see anyone saying "Make sure you only promote female authors and don't vote for male authors until all of the author lists are 100% female".

I do see people arguing that we *shouldn't* do any of these things, but, um ... who are you arguing with?

[Lanko]

Yea, maybe you should have followed the thread more closely.

[cupiscent]

Not sure what thread you're reading then, Lanko, as tebakutis has summed up everything I've seen or been saying in this one.

[Lady Ty]

@tebakutis

I don't see anyone saying "Recommend authors just because they are female".

Not  "just because " certainly, but the title of the thread implies that we should be going out of our way to ensure we do and that was not a view I would endorse and agreed with most of @Nora and @Lanko  thoughts about that.

My reasoning here is that if you insist on some kind of 'quota' on people's choices, be it  five vegetables in a day's meals, walking 30 minutes every day, or female authors in a recommendation list, it can discourage participation or people view it as a chore rather than a pleasure. It becomes a rule you have to follow rather than something you choose to do naturally and to some extent devalues the particular aim or object of the quota.

[The Gem Cutter]

My reasoning here is that if you insist on some kind of 'quota' on people's choices [...] it can discourage participation or people view it as a chore rather than a pleasure. It becomes a rule you have to follow rather than something you choose to do naturally and to some extent devalues the particular aim or object of the quota.

I agree. Keeping things positive is important. No one has a duty. We all have a right to enjoy what we want and dislike what we want, for whatever reasons we want. And our recommendations are our own. Forcing things, ironic as it is for a military guy to point out, doesn't work, and as Lady Ty points out, it has a price.

In this community we have very progressive and inclusive views as a whole, so no more than "Remember those lady writers when you're recommending!" is warranted. It's just bouncing around inside our already pro-equality echo chamber, imperfect as it might be. Perhaps the place for strident voices, borrowing from the 'preaching to the choir' analogy, is where the sinners are. And our sins are the gender equivalent of double-parking - done in haste, without malice.

When you have to do data analysis to identify a potential discrepancy, with results as ambiguous as we've found, there are bigger issues more worthy of attention, here and elsewhere. We spent time and attention debating this that could have been a discussion of several women's work in a strictly positive and attractive light, and moved a bigger ball further down the field.

[Peat]

I keep running out of time to make intelligent well-reasoned points in language that won't be misunderstood so I will be skipping the concept and jumping to a quick point about the numbers.

Presenting general trends based on a very small representative sample is not uncommon. Nielsen survey about 5,000 households to work out TV ratings for 90m households in the USA. Political pollers in the UK routinely make calls on an electorate of 46.5m based off of polls of 2,000 people. The small size of the sample is not in itself reason to dismiss it out of hand. Might it change as it gets larger? Maybe, but probably not. The next 15 threads chucked up 238 guys, 104 girls. 30.4%, pretty in line.

And yes, the numbers aren't far below the probable percentage of female authors in the genre. Sleep now, more facts later.


edit: Can't sleep, so lets have a quick stab at the concept.

At no point in this thread have I deliberately advocated recommended authors for any reason other than a belief that the person reading the recommendation will enjoy them.

My sole wish, in the greater and wider sense beyond answering an interesting question, is to see as healthy and high-quality a fantasy genre as possible.

I do not believe acknowledging a potential problem in terms of recognition for some authors conflicts at all with the above, or the idea of being positive.

Nor do I believe seeing this as a potential problem stems from fear, or anxiety, or any negative emotion. It stems from a belief that we could have a better genre.

I believe that sums it up. TGC is right to note that there are bigger issues more worthy of attention but I do not believe the subject unworthy of some attention.

[Lanko]

Not sure what thread you're reading then, Lanko, as tebakutis has summed up everything I've seen or been saying in this one.

Interesting. I saw pretty clearly others read the same thread and even commenting and answering the same points. But since they are posts not agreeing with the agenda being pushed, I guess that's all there's left to say.

Spoiler for Hiden:

Gosh, are people really this tedious? I recommend people by theme, interest... If asked which author blew my mind out the most, I answer thinking by books. Books which floored me, not running a gender equality answer!
I'd say Sanderson, Bennett, Harris, (Fowls), Tolkien and Martin - and then Sheri Tepper, Charlaine Harris, Rice and Chambers, (Austen, Bronte, Auel).

So what if there are more males than females in the people who wrote the books which influenced me the most?
If people asked for specific recommendation, like works on dragons or interesting sci Fi, then maybe I'd recommend more females than males? Who knows.
How do you recommend equally if you don't read equally to begin with? I'm not sure my goodreads has a 50-50 in author genders to be honest. I just never think about such things!
People should focus on encouraging female authors in all fields, rather than nagging at fans.

I know that I recommend almost 100% women authors to people looking for what I read because almost all of them are women that write in that field. Should I be worried that I'm not giving people more male names? They don't appear very often but I don't think I should go out of the way to mention one just because of what chromosomes inhabit his body.

If someone was to tell me my favourite authors were actually the other gender, I wouldn't care. I DNF because of story, not sex or anything else. If a man writes a good romance novel that moves me then by the gods he'll get mentioned just as quick as the women that are so prevalent in the field that get me to remember their names.

In the fantasy genre, I'll say this: I DNF a Jemisin trilogy. I put that thing down almost as quick as I picked it up. That has to be two months ago, maybe three. The POV and writing style just didn't jive for me. I didn't know the sex of the author until a few days ago but I guess that's no excuse. Here's the thing, though: I started reading Sci Fi / Fantasy books written by white male authors. This must be why I didn't like her writing - she's not a British, white male author writing about the grim darkness of the far future. Neither are the women writing my beloved Fantasy Romance / Romantic Fantasy yet that's my favourite genre. The wires must have been crossed somewhere!

It's really a difficult issue. You may look at certain sub-genres of SFF and see very few female recommendations. But if you look at PR, the recommendations are almost entirely female. If you look at YA SFF, the recommendations are almost entirely female.

Could there be some sexism involved? Sure. But it's difficult to say because there are many factors at play.

I recommend books that I enjoy. I don't recommend writers.

I think there's a related problem that the recommendations all tend to come from the same small pool that keeps recirculating. They all tend to be fairly recent and fairly middle-of-the-genre, with maybe the odd "classic" thrown in.

This is kind of understandable. If a book is recommended here, I dare say quite a few of us will check it out, and probably like it, so it's self-reinforcing. Also if other people are recommending a thing, that will (a) remind you it exists, and (b) give you some confidence that it is actually good. I know there are books I read a long time ago that I don't mention because I'm not sure they still stand up.

I read whatever I want. Yes, I have more male authors on my shelf than female authors. Okay. One day I'll find a female author that I like as much as Brent Weeks or Brandon Sanderson, but I'm not going to intentionally look for them. For me, that would be like someone reading my book because I'm blind, and not because they're interested in the story. Sure, it might help me get sales, but at the same time, it feels more condescending than anything else, and I wouldn't want that. So I'm not going to feel sorry for female authors and read their books out of sympathy. Whenever the next one catches my eye, I will pick it up.

@Lanko I wish I could like your post twice! I was slowly gathering up the same information as this line of thinking annoys me.
If I pay money for a book or invest time in reading it surely I have some entitlement to the best experience possible and do not need to be guilt tripped into second thinking myself as to whether I am in some way not being fair to female authors. Likewise if a publishing house gets only a third of submissions from women authors they are under no obligation to publish a greater percentage of those submissions than those they receive from male authors to balance this up.

Also, in general, I don't see why we make an issue of individual people needing to be fair and equality minded when it comes to sharing their taste with others. Numbers prove that we can hardly be fair in our reading without making a special effort, since SFF is unbalanced in what is published, due to unbalance as to what is even submitted.

I don't personally owe to anyone to be more careful on what I read. I owe to myself to read quality, and it's my never ending quest, regardless of the nationality or gender of the author. I've stated before that I have a strong dislike for seeing what authors even look like, or what they believe in. People like Sanderson personally put me off, with his face, his squeaky voice, and his religious views. I prefer to read a book and judge a author by it. I'd be just as happy if books all came with generic fake author names of a 3rd gender and everyone published refered to as "xe".

This looks like a long, complicated string to basically accuse us readers of this problem. and apart of that string is saying that books only sell well if they're recommended. So what's your definition of recommended? Is a Goodreads rating not a form of recommendation? Is a review not a type of recommendation? Or is a recommendation only someone telling you that you should read x?

Am I the only one who thinks gender is absolutely IRRELEVANT to what I suggest to others?
I recommend books that I like. If it happens to be written by a man. OK. If it happens to be written by a female. OK.

I don't care... It's about the story, right? Or is it about WHO wrote it?

I don't get this entire discussion as gender doesn't mean something is good or bad... It's just another extrapolated "social issue" that has to be discussed here?

@tebakutis

I don't see anyone saying "Recommend authors just because they are female".

Not  "just because " certainly, but the title of the thread implies that we should be going out of our way to ensure we do and that was not a view I would endorse and agreed with most of @Nora and @Lanko  thoughts about that.

My reasoning here is that if you insist on some kind of 'quota' on people's choices, be it  five vegetables in a day's meals, walking 30 minutes every day, or female authors in a recommendation list, it can discourage participation or people view it as a chore rather than a pleasure. It becomes a rule you have to follow rather than something you choose to do naturally and to some extent devalues the particular aim or object of the quota.

People simply nailed it when they said nobody has any obligation to read/recommend in a specific, enforced way to appease someone else on how the world of books should work in their view.

Some people even made stuff up like "there is only 10 white males at every Best Fantasy 2016 lists top 10 out there!"
Then a 5 minute search shows lists with up to 4000 female names on it, another two lists in the most popular voting contest in the world with 9 females to 1 male, and even SF with 5/5, possibly 6/4 towards women. And 7/3 on the previous Fantasy year. And a Top 50 of FF, but that "only" almost reached 40%, so it's probably "unfitting", despite the top 10 having 6 females and with a female winner as well.

So those female authored books and genres are getting massively read, maybe it's just we that don't see them around or we that yet have to read those books (if they interest us) and so on.

[Peat]

Lanko, your post reads like you're accusing us of lying. Please clarify whether that was your intention.