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Fantasy Faction => Fantasy Book & Author Discussion => Topic started by: Overlord on January 10, 2011, 09:25:12 AM

Title: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Overlord on January 10, 2011, 09:25:12 AM
Just a quick question...

When people say 'Epic Fantasy' to me I sometimes associate this with 'Space Opera' in that there is loads and loads of text about the history, politics and so on. Having not read Wheel of Time or Game of Thrones (I KNOW - OMG!) I'm still a little hesitant to read them in fear that they will not be quite up to the action type fantasy I myself enjoy - I'm quite into Weeks, Brett, Canavan and so on...

Just wondering - has anyone found the books tough to get into? I've but them both down to be read in March right now! :)
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: jswinds on January 10, 2011, 09:31:11 AM
ASOIAF was incredibly accessible and very easy to get into. The series has not dragged yet up until now, Martin hasn't laboured too much on the World Building - the plot and characters are at the forefront.

When I started Wheel Of Time 10 of the novels had been released, and they looked DAUNTING on the shelf. And because Jordan focused a lot on building the world, in many areas the characters and plot seemed secondary tot he narration - you really do need to push yourself through some of the mush in the middle of them, and you'll often find you can just read the dialogue and skip that lengthy narration, and not be any the worse off because of it.

They're both definitely worth reading, I think Jordan, in his last novel, and Sanderson in Gathering Storm really knocked WoT back on track, and they're peaking brilliantly now.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Blodeuedd on January 10, 2011, 09:50:22 AM
When I started WOT I read them like crazy, and then it all stopped, cos I had read what they had. After that it was one book a year, or every second year. I think those long waits saved the books for me. Because I was so hyped up that even if it was one long passage about what the had for breakfast..going over 100 pages, I still loved it.

But yes I do confess to have skimmed parts *perrin coughs*

Could WOT be shorter..oh yes! But then there never meant to be 14 books, things just got out of hand.

As for Martin, how many books do he have? Not many I think. Those I just have not read cos I started and then he went on a killing spree and I got sad
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: jswinds on January 10, 2011, 09:54:18 AM
As for Martin, how many books do he have? Not many I think. Those I just have not read cos I started and then he went on a killing spree and I got sad

That's what I enjoyed about Martin's books, and not to spoil it for the OP, but everyone you like in those stories dies ( with the exception of Tyrion up to this point ). It's a refreshing change from the fantasy norm; because I feel that if I read one more passage about people conquering dark lords with the power of love, I figuratively feel like my head will explode over my desk.  

Less love, more grit.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Overlord on January 10, 2011, 10:05:56 AM
ASOIAF was incredibly accessible and very easy to get into. The series has not dragged yet up until now, Martin hasn't laboured too much on the World Building - the plot and characters are at the forefront.

When I started Wheel Of Time 10 of the novels had been released, and they looked DAUNTING on the shelf. And because Jordan focused a lot on building the world, in many areas the characters and plot seemed secondary tot he narration - you really do need to push yourself through some of the mush in the middle of them, and you'll often find you can just read the dialogue and skip that lengthy narration, and not be any the worse off because of it.

They're both definitely worth reading, I think Jordan, in his last novel, and Sanderson in Gathering Storm really knocked WoT back on track, and they're peaking brilliantly now.

Brilliant summary - thank you very much for that js :)
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Blodeuedd on January 10, 2011, 10:59:48 AM
Well I am a girl so I like love,  ;D But ok killing evil gods with the power of love is a bit too much for me too. But as long as the guy or girl, I root for lives I am happy. I blame those damn happily ever after books I read as a teen, *curses Harlequin*

Now it looks like I need love and stuff in fantasy, I do not! Love is fine, just do not show it. Anyway, kind of lost interest in Martin cos I had no one to like. Suddenly I stood there without anyone to root for, I hated the rest, and espeically that idiot Daenyrs. I cant read a book where I hate everyone. If I ever start again I know who to like, yes I have asked who still lives  ;)
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: jswinds on January 10, 2011, 12:48:15 PM
Anyway, kind of lost interest in Martin cos I had no one to like. Suddenly I stood there without anyone to root for, I hated the rest, and espeically that idiot Daenyrs. I cant read a book where I hate everyone. If I ever start again I know who to like, yes I have asked who still lives  ;)
Ah, see - i've always championed Tyrion right from the start, and in the later books he plays a greater and greater role. There's something about that scheming twisted dwarf that I like.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Maischeph on January 10, 2011, 01:24:16 PM
I love Tyrion and Dany. I hope they have children together.

On a side note: I saw someone mention in a different thread that Arya was dead...I admit AFfC is the only one I only read once, but I don't remember her dying... I remember her position being seriously compromised, i.e., strong implications of her death, but not actual confirmation. Can anyone confirm? Thanks!
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: michaelramm on January 10, 2011, 02:44:41 PM
Having not read Wheel of Time or Game of Thrones (I KNOW - OMG!)

My name is Michael and I have not read Robert Jordan or George RR Martin...(Hi Michael!)

I tried to read Eye of the World many years ago, but found it too much like Tolkien, so I put it away. I have toyed with trying it again this year, but I have so much that I want to read, I may not get to it.

I do have A Game of Thrones on my current TBR list. I have so many good things about it that I want to check it out. It is part of my effort to expand my fantasy reading past Tolkien, Salvatore, Eddings, Anthony and Lawhead.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: pornokitsch on January 10, 2011, 06:14:07 PM
When I finally got around to reading The Wheel of Time, I blitzed through the first five books in record fashion. I found them incredibly repetitive and dull. And then realized that I'd actually read them in the wrong order and it didn't matter.

Afraid I haven't been back to them since.

(I'm aware that I'm a minority opinion on this one.)

I do like the GRRM books, although they've sort of lost their novelty. When they first came out, he was the only mass-market-low-fantasy-that-reads-like-The-Wire author in that space. Now there are a bunch, and he's not even the best of them.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: jswinds on January 10, 2011, 06:18:42 PM
Can anyone confirm? Thanks!
I thought she was just blinded?
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: ChristinaJL on January 10, 2011, 07:14:31 PM
Well, I've read all the Song of Ice and Fire books so far, plus the first of the WoT.  I enjoyed the first 3 of the Martin's books - however, I did plod through and skip parts of a Feast of Crows as it concentrated on a whole load of characters I was less interested in and none of some of my favourites.   ::) 

I didn't find the first WoT book long winded, I really enjoyed it - however it did take me 5 days to read, so maybe it was longer.   :P
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Itachimaru on January 10, 2011, 07:26:02 PM
Can anyone confirm? Thanks!
I thought she was just blinded?

Arya blinded, for now at least! Kick ass character and I would love to see her further developed in her skills. Mystery Assassin for sure!

Quote
Anyway, kind of lost interest in Martin cos I had no one to like. Suddenly I stood there without anyone to root for, I hated the rest, and espeically that idiot Daenyrs. I cant read a book where I hate everyone. If I ever start again I know who to like, yes I have asked who still lives

John, Arya,Sansa,... Full of lovable characters??

Quote
Well, I've read all the Song of Ice and Fire books so far, plus the first of the WoT.  I enjoyed the first 3 of the Martin's books - however, I did plod through and skip parts of a Feast of Crows as it concentrated on a whole load of characters I was less interested in and none of some of my favourites.

Very true, the same for me. Too much jabbering about "minor" characters, but even-so it is a definitely must read!!
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Bryndled1 on January 10, 2011, 07:44:42 PM
in regards to wheel of time;

Descriptive, very descriptive, do you care about the color of the reflection of the moss colored leaf flittering off the branch toward the pebble strewn sand, the golden sun reflecting off the rounded stones... (this is NOT a WoT quote) but you get the drift.... for pages... and pages. it can get really really hard to sift through at points. the story is fantastic though. good characterization, depth. a whole world full of cast. probably 30 fully fleshed sub-characters with equal amount of sub-plots. keep a notebook, you'll need it

in regards to song of ice and fire;

it moves much faster than WoT, my biggest beef as Im pretty sure ive stated other places is that he kills everybody I care about off.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Blodeuedd on January 10, 2011, 09:26:31 PM
No why did I go and read those spoilers..hihi  ::)

Nope never liked Sansa and Arya, or Jon...but if I start reading them again (after he has finished the series) then I know who to root for
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Itachimaru on January 10, 2011, 10:26:25 PM
Quote
Nope never liked Sansa and Arya, or Jon...but if I start reading them again (after he has finished the series) then I know who to root for

Strange taste you have...
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Zziz on January 10, 2011, 10:58:04 PM
It is my personal opinion that if you have not read Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice and Fire, you are currently missing out on the two most rewarding fantasy experiences on shelves right now.

Absolutely they're long winded. Extremely much so. But every word is worth it. Jordan gets wordy, there's no doubt about it, but there is nothing like reading that Wheel of Time world- so accessible, detailed. I almost feel as if I know that world personally, as if I have traversed those lands. I read Towers of Midnight when it came out this year, and it was one of the best reads I have ever had. I'm sure the conclusion will not dissapoint.

Martin's books are different, but genius in their own right. There's little to no magic in this series (though it's hinted there is more to come), but the characters draw you in like you wouldn't believe. It's so well done you'll find your self absolutely loathing some characters, and absolutely loving some. There's very little apathy- you know, the way you feel about a boring character in a different book.

I know you've got a big book list, Overlord- but as the owner of a new premier fantasy website, you should read these!!!!
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Zziz on January 11, 2011, 01:59:10 AM
in regards to wheel of time;

Descriptive, very descriptive, do you care about the color of the reflection of the moss colored leaf flittering off the branch toward the pebble strewn sand, the golden sun reflecting off the rounded stones... (this is NOT a WoT quote) but you get the drift.... for pages... and pages. it can get really really hard to sift through at points. the story is fantastic though. good characterization, depth. a whole world full of cast. probably 30 fully fleshed sub-characters with equal amount of sub-plots. keep a notebook, you'll need it

in regards to song of ice and fire;

it moves much faster than WoT, my biggest beef as Im pretty sure ive stated other places is that he kills everybody I care about off.

Wayyyyyyyyyy more than 30 sub-characters who have their own depth, tone, history, story etc. I'd say closer to 200. The story is told from probably...50 different vantage points throughout the series.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: missoularedhead on January 11, 2011, 05:37:02 PM
Game of Thrones isn't long winded…yet.  Just drawn out.  But WOT?  Oh, hells yes.  The one thing I appreciate about Sanderson is that the Aes Sedai are no longer smoothing their skirts every six pages or so.  There's a lot of editing that didn't get done on those books.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Zziz on January 11, 2011, 06:17:06 PM
Game of Thrones isn't long winded…yet.  Just drawn out.  But WOT?  Oh, hells yes.  The one thing I appreciate about Sanderson is that the Aes Sedai are no longer smoothing their skirts every six pages or so.  There's a lot of editing that didn't get done on those books.

It's not that there was no editing- quite the opposite really. Harriet McDougle, Robert Jordan's widow and the editor who discovered him, edited every book prior to it going through another rigorous editing process. Superfluous description was a part of Jordan's writing and a part of his world. Many readers, including myself, find that long-winded as it may be, it has gone to great lengths to create the most vivid world in the entire fantasy genre.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Captain-Dr-Proffesor on January 30, 2011, 07:45:56 AM
I have been recommended WoT and have tried reading it, but I found it impossible to get into. There is a point where it's too long winded, and Jordan far exceeds my limit of detail. I have heard that it's a great series, but I can't get myself to try and read them again.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Overlord on January 30, 2011, 09:59:15 AM
Cool that I can now answer at least half of my original question ;) Game of Thrones is in no way slow paced. It is certainly an epic adventure, but it moves pretty fast... I mean within 1/4 of the book you have switched locations 2/3 times (depending on character), met about 30 characters and had 4-6 story arcs (depending how you look at it). I am 3/4 through now and found it very well paced. I liked that there are so many characters too - something some people complain about.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Passiko on January 30, 2011, 03:28:40 PM
I must say that I am a huge Wheel of Time fan. I know that they can get very windy and detailed, but they are still amazingly good. Books 1-3 are very good and then 4 and 5. Then the books starts to get worse for details. I have read the first couple of books many times. The books have been very dear to me. I have many fond memorys of reading the books, of playing online role playing games from the series, of many people that I have met over the years because of the books. Its a world that you can get sucked into easily. Its not a world where you just see one section of the huge map, you are basicly taken through the whole map in the course of the series. Id at least say try and read the first three just to get a glimpse of the series.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Dan D Jones on January 30, 2011, 04:29:48 PM
WOT is quite long winded.  I read the first five or six, then stopped.  There's so much going on, with so many characters and I read so much that I had a hard time following the story with the delay between books.  I've purchased the books as they've come out but they're sitting on my bookshelf unread.  Once the series is complete, I'll read the whole thing.  I think the whole series could probably have been done in five or six books without being rushed or the plot compressed.  On the other hand, Jordan is a good enough author that the long-windedness isn't boring.

I don't think ASOIAF is long winded in the same sense.  It's a dense, complex plot and needs the length to cover everything.  It could probably be a bit shorter but you couldn't get near the compression out of it that you could from WOT.  Incidentally, Feast of Crows is also sitting on my bookshelf unread.  I'll take the same approach as with  WOT.  When Martin finishes it, I'll read the whole series. 
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: missoularedhead on January 30, 2011, 06:31:48 PM
Funnily enough, someone elsewhere said Sanderson's women were sometimes a bit stilted.  And I agree, except where it comes to his work on WOT.  Perhaps that's just because the women in the Jordan books were so much MORE stilted.  I found Morgaine, as both a character and a woman, to be incredibly one dimensional, and her motives rather poorly drawn in the first books, and Egwene and Nynaeve are much more real in the Sanderson books than they have been previously.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Funky Scarecrow on January 31, 2011, 12:07:20 AM
I've tried I don't know how many times to get into WoT, at least twice a year for the past five years, but I just can't do it. I have limited patience for descriptive passages and world building. Tell me if it's wet, dry, overcast or sunny, give me a rough idea of the terrain (trees, fields or desert? Hilly of flat?); by all means drop a hint or two about how the world works, then for goodness' sake get on with the story!. They just don't have any rhythm or melody in the narrative, all variations but no theme, if you follow my rather odd analogy.

GoT on the other hand, keeps description to blessed minimum (it's either snowing, temperate or hot. The terrain is either white, green or brown accordingly. Bam... next!), letting the reader's mind fill in the details. The world building information is  spread out over pretty much the whole novel, rather than layered on with a trowel at every opportunity. More importantly, the rhythm of the narrative is right. It's percussive, driving, portentous. There are variations aplenty, but the theme of pervading menace never relents throughout the entire, not exactly anaemically thin, novel.

In short, for me GoT feels as long as it needs to be*; WoT feels stretched to breaking point before I'm a quarter way through the first volume.

* I'm speaking only for GoT here, as the question asked. I'm not going to go barrelling through the sequel volumes until I know the series is completed. Once it is, watch me streak through them.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: AmyRoseDavis on February 03, 2011, 04:00:41 PM
ASOIAF is much better paced that WOT. And even though "A Feast for Crows" concentrated on all the minor characters I really didn't care about (except Jaime--I'm starting to like him, God help me), it still clipped along as far as pacing goes. I missed Jon and Tyrion, but I guess I saw it as kind of a bridge book. Martin's world is just so dang enormous and intricately woven that I suppose he needs to bridge some gaps occasionally.

I started WOT as they came out. Wow, that shows how old I am. I gave up after five or six books. And even though everyone says the recent books are better paced and that Sanderson is bringing the series to a very satisfying end, I just can't bring myself to wade through all of the skirt smoothing and Rand's massive angst again.

My 6th grade son started reading the first WOT book. I warned him about the angst, but he's plodding ahead. Maybe he'll do better since more of them are out than when I started.

You know, I started that first WOT book when I was a newlywed in 1991. I'll be married 20 years next month. Yeesh, that series is endless.

Amy
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: HotdogMcGoo on February 03, 2011, 04:28:54 PM
ASoIaF is very character driven.  You find out about the world and such as you go along, but it's all about the characters.  Not all the characters that are followed are as interesting as others, but my favorite characters are what kept me burning through the book.  I would groan every time I got to a Sansa section, just to burn through it to find out what the next section is.

They aren't exactly action-driven as there is a lot of political maneuvering and in many cases you get a second hand description of the battles/fights.  But it's a very gripping, intense series.  Also very unpredictable compared to most of the fantasy I've read.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: AmyRoseDavis on February 03, 2011, 04:50:30 PM
ASoIaF is very character driven.  You find out about the world and such as you go along, but it's all about the characters.  Not all the characters that are followed are as interesting as others, but my favorite characters are what kept me burning through the book.  I would groan every time I got to a Sansa section, just to burn through it to find out what the next section is.

They aren't exactly action-driven as there is a lot of political maneuvering and in many cases you get a second hand description of the battles/fights.  But it's a very gripping, intense series.  Also very unpredictable compared to most of the fantasy I've read.

Agreed on all counts. My husband was reading GOT while I read SOS, and everytime he'd groan, I'd say, "Sansa chapter?" And he'd nod... :)

Amy
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Lyz on July 25, 2011, 04:42:11 PM
ASoIaF is very character driven.  You find out about the world and such as you go along, but it's all about the characters.  Not all the characters that are followed are as interesting as others, but my favorite characters are what kept me burning through the book.  I would groan every time I got to a Sansa section, just to burn through it to find out what the next section is.

They aren't exactly action-driven as there is a lot of political maneuvering and in many cases you get a second hand description of the battles/fights.  But it's a very gripping, intense series.  Also very unpredictable compared to most of the fantasy I've read.

Agreed on all counts. My husband was reading GOT while I read SOS, and everytime he'd groan, I'd say, "Sansa chapter?" And he'd nod... :)

Amy

Oh, Sansa. I disliked her character so, so much (in GoT; that's the only one I've read, so far). So blind, and whiny, and juvenile.

In regards to WoT, I read the first few books in high school, and I remember enjoying them quite a bit. Then I got to The Lord of Chaos (which ever number that is), and I got so damned bored I couldn't even get through it. WoT is on my re-read list, because I'd like to be able to get through the series... But I worry about the Sanderson books being so different from the rest of the series, and lord only knows when the series will actually be completed... D:
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: jdiddyesquire on July 25, 2011, 04:44:06 PM

Oh, Sansa. I disliked her character so, so much (in GoT; that's the only one I've read, so far). So blind, and whiny, and juvenile.

In regards to WoT, I read the first few books in high school, and I remember enjoying them quite a bit. Then I got to The Lord of Chaos (which ever number that is), and I got so damned bored I couldn't even get through it. WoT is on my re-read list, because I'd like to be able to get through the series... But I worry about the Sanderson books being so different from the rest of the series, and lord only knows when the series will actually be completed... D:

Sansa is quite interesting in AFFC once she gets out of Kings Landing.

Sanderson is going to finish the WOT books in 2012.  November I believe.  He's made every deadline he's posted.  And the quality of them is a real step up over Jordan's books 7-12.  IMO.
Title: Re: Are 'Wheel of Time' / 'Game of Thrones' long winded?
Post by: Nighteyes on July 25, 2011, 04:52:36 PM
Simple answer: yes.