August 09, 2020, 02:48:12 PM

Author Topic: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community  (Read 1903 times)

Offline Peat

Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2020, 02:36:40 PM »

Making an idiot of yourself and displaying a pattern of abuse are two very different things. This is why I called on Orbit and Gollancz to make a public statement about Sam Sykes. He admitted his behaviour, and described these women as "victims". The organisations which endorse him need to prove to the community that they've listened, and responded fairly and appropriately.

What would be a fair and appropriate reaction in your eyes?
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Offline Nora

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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2020, 09:12:53 PM »
Surely dropping him and making an official statement that they won't endorse living authors who display patterns of abuse, can't keep their hands to themselves, are wife beaters, etc, should be a good start?

I understand that it is hard because some great authors are truly tortured beings, and some historically influential ones were real POS, but we're actively trying to better ourselves as a society, and giving a platform to such people is counter productive to that.

If a large company is caught in the limelight because one of their best manager is shown to be a sex pest, they'll fire him, if only in a calculated way, to avoid flack. Let publishers behave in the same way. It is not like an author cannot self publish. Their work can still be read, if one wants to... Except a manager won't ever be able to "manage" anything on his own. So a sex pest author who loses their contract could do relatively well for themselves going on their own as they most likely will still have fans who don't care about his views or tendencies.

Hence they don't need any special cushy treatment just because they're creative types. Quite to the contrary. There are millions of books we'll never get to read. These guys aren't out there curing cancer, I think the world could survive without their work to begin with, and as I said, it's not even like anything prevents them from putting it out there..
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Offline Peat

Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2020, 09:51:16 PM »
Surely dropping him and making an official statement that they won't endorse living authors who display patterns of abuse, can't keep their hands to themselves, are wife beaters, etc, should be a good start?

I understand that it is hard because some great authors are truly tortured beings, and some historically influential ones were real POS, but we're actively trying to better ourselves as a society, and giving a platform to such people is counter productive to that.

If a large company is caught in the limelight because one of their best manager is shown to be a sex pest, they'll fire him, if only in a calculated way, to avoid flack. Let publishers behave in the same way. It is not like an author cannot self publish. Their work can still be read, if one wants to... Except a manager won't ever be able to "manage" anything on his own. So a sex pest author who loses their contract could do relatively well for themselves going on their own as they most likely will still have fans who don't care about his views or tendencies.

Hence they don't need any special cushy treatment just because they're creative types. Quite to the contrary. There are millions of books we'll never get to read. These guys aren't out there curing cancer, I think the world could survive without their work to begin with, and as I said, it's not even like anything prevents them from putting it out there..

Part of me agrees.

Part of me feels that's a harsh overreaction. Most people don't lose jobs for being major arseholes in a professional environment, even when it goes public. And I'm not sure what these people did went beyond that. They didn't physically hurt people, they've not targeted people continuously etc.etc. What they did is an issue but I struggle to work out what's the right response.

Of course, what's happened before isn't a great guide and building a better society would be great. However, for me, part of that is having reactions to transgressions that are more about reform, restitution, and rehabilitation, than punishment and revenge. Publishers ditching authors feels a lot more of the latter than the former.

Also of course, there's the issue of deterrence too. I think even the biggest optimist has to admit deterrence will be needed.

And there's another minor issue in that killing these authors' projects generally means people who had absolutely nothing to do with their misdeeds losing work too. That's a tiny part of it but it's not nothing.

There's got to be something. I'd like to see the serial gropers banned from cons for at least a year.  I'm sure there's classes on "not being a creepy gropey abusehole at workplace drinks" and requiring said authors to go as a condition of staying with the publisher/agency would make a lot of sense.

But losing contracts? I dunno. I'm not sure either way. I'm guessing the publishers aren't either.
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Offline Skip

Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2020, 11:03:37 PM »
Social pressure has always played a role, of course. So has rule of law. There's tension between the two.

Rule of law says here are the laws that society has decided are important. We have a mechanism for detecting breaches of law, for apprehended the accused, trying them, punishing them. The ideal is that all are equally subject to both the law and the process.

Social pressure comes along, often, when there's a widespread belief that this is either insufficient or unjust. In the past, the recourse has been to lobby for new laws, to reform courts or police departments or penitentiaries.

Social media has changed the dynamic. Now, as has been observed, companies will punish an employee without due (legal) process as a way to fend off bad publicity. That's been going on for a couple of generations. Still more recently, we see people punished by the crowd directly. The process seems to be a kind of popular vote (level of traffic on Twitter, FB, combined with news reports), but the process heavily favors those who are already influencers. Once in a while, this can lead to good results; other times, it leads to unfortunate results.

The difference, it seems to me, lies in the process, not in the morality of intent or result. The process of this sort of condemnation by the mob is fluid and inconsistent. It certainly does not ensure that all are equal before it. That's a problem and society will have to find ways to deal with it.

Meanwhile, as I said, much good will be done and much bad will be done. I'm not advocating no action. I'm only suggesting that we're dealing with something quite new here, and it needs serious and wide discussion.
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Offline Nora

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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2020, 11:52:01 PM »
Part of me agrees.

Part of me feels that's a harsh overreaction. Most people don't lose jobs for being major arseholes in a professional environment, even when it goes public. And I'm not sure what these people did went beyond that. They didn't physically hurt people, they've not targeted people continuously etc.etc. What they did is an issue but I struggle to work out what's the right response.

Of course, what's happened before isn't a great guide and building a better society would be great. However, for me, part of that is having reactions to transgressions that are more about reform, restitution, and rehabilitation, than punishment and revenge. Publishers ditching authors feels a lot more of the latter than the former.

Also of course, there's the issue of deterrence too. I think even the biggest optimist has to admit deterrence will be needed.

And there's another minor issue in that killing these authors' projects generally means people who had absolutely nothing to do with their misdeeds losing work too. That's a tiny part of it but it's not nothing.

There's got to be something. I'd like to see the serial gropers banned from cons for at least a year.  I'm sure there's classes on "not being a creepy gropey abusehole at workplace drinks" and requiring said authors to go as a condition of staying with the publisher/agency would make a lot of sense.

But losing contracts? I dunno. I'm not sure either way. I'm guessing the publishers aren't either.

edit : this is us still talking *assuming* that the hardest allegations are true and only about them, not about the weird love triangle or the rumours about sykes, etc. It's hypothetical, despite my fiery stance that it's ok for an author to lose representation, etc.

Would you say the same if they'd public made racist comments? Because people are racists verbally, outside of work, get trending online and lose their jobs because their companies don't want to be known as a condoning racism.
Where do you draw the line with men misbehaving and abusing women? Why is it any different? Does it need to be your teen sister, to be told Mr Author want to pee all over her face, before you feel the injury that we do?

You comment as a whole comes across as rather dismissive of the situation for women, though I understand it's not what you mean.

If a man (like Coles) can be accused of sexual harassment, and own up to it, TWICE, and still keep his job in your opinion, then we clearly don't value women's comfort and safety in the same manner. This man is a public figure in the community (or was...) with a voice, and followers, and people hooked to his social media, reading his books, and visiting him in person at cons.
This man can go and be a total asshat to women if he wants to, but he cannot be free of the consequences of his actions, though many men are ready to brush it aside and laugh it off, I for one am glad that we're at a point where publishers don't want to be associated with sex pests... It's progress.
Look, it'll never have any negative effects on you personally. All you have to do is to not harass women, not force yourself on them, not tell teens who want a signature that you want to pee on their face. Is it so hard? Would you be comfortable knowing that type of person is your accountant? Your lawyer? Your dentist? Your teacher? Your teen sister's teacher? Your teen sister's favourite author?

What should we do? What do you propose? A sticker on the cover? "Be warned that author sexually harassed women, admitting to it at least twice. The following work may not be the most feminist forward fiction in this SFF section" ?

If people want to behave like animals, let them reap the consequences. And these consequences, sadly, can act as the deterrence to other sex pests who were probably not thinking about how predatory their behaviour is, and now have to take a little break before jumping down on women.

I'm happy to be part of a serious and deep conversation on social media applications of mob justice, but I'd appreciate if it weren't aiming to make men's lives easier when they prey on women, using their status to boot.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 01:58:40 AM by Nora »
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Offline Peat

Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2020, 12:31:31 PM »
Part of me agrees.

Part of me feels that's a harsh overreaction. Most people don't lose jobs for being major arseholes in a professional environment, even when it goes public. And I'm not sure what these people did went beyond that. They didn't physically hurt people, they've not targeted people continuously etc.etc. What they did is an issue but I struggle to work out what's the right response.

Of course, what's happened before isn't a great guide and building a better society would be great. However, for me, part of that is having reactions to transgressions that are more about reform, restitution, and rehabilitation, than punishment and revenge. Publishers ditching authors feels a lot more of the latter than the former.

Also of course, there's the issue of deterrence too. I think even the biggest optimist has to admit deterrence will be needed.

And there's another minor issue in that killing these authors' projects generally means people who had absolutely nothing to do with their misdeeds losing work too. That's a tiny part of it but it's not nothing.

There's got to be something. I'd like to see the serial gropers banned from cons for at least a year.  I'm sure there's classes on "not being a creepy gropey abusehole at workplace drinks" and requiring said authors to go as a condition of staying with the publisher/agency would make a lot of sense.

But losing contracts? I dunno. I'm not sure either way. I'm guessing the publishers aren't either.

edit : this is us still talking *assuming* that the hardest allegations are true and only about them, not about the weird love triangle or the rumours about sykes, etc. It's hypothetical, despite my fiery stance that it's ok for an author to lose representation, etc.

Would you say the same if they'd public made racist comments? Because people are racists verbally, outside of work, get trending online and lose their jobs because their companies don't want to be known as a condoning racism.
Where do you draw the line with men misbehaving and abusing women? Why is it any different? Does it need to be your teen sister, to be told Mr Author want to pee all over her face, before you feel the injury that we do?

You comment as a whole comes across as rather dismissive of the situation for women, though I understand it's not what you mean.

If a man (like Coles) can be accused of sexual harassment, and own up to it, TWICE, and still keep his job in your opinion, then we clearly don't value women's comfort and safety in the same manner. This man is a public figure in the community (or was...) with a voice, and followers, and people hooked to his social media, reading his books, and visiting him in person at cons.
This man can go and be a total asshat to women if he wants to, but he cannot be free of the consequences of his actions, though many men are ready to brush it aside and laugh it off, I for one am glad that we're at a point where publishers don't want to be associated with sex pests... It's progress.
Look, it'll never have any negative effects on you personally. All you have to do is to not harass women, not force yourself on them, not tell teens who want a signature that you want to pee on their face. Is it so hard? Would you be comfortable knowing that type of person is your accountant? Your lawyer? Your dentist? Your teacher? Your teen sister's teacher? Your teen sister's favourite author?

What should we do? What do you propose? A sticker on the cover? "Be warned that author sexually harassed women, admitting to it at least twice. The following work may not be the most feminist forward fiction in this SFF section" ?

If people want to behave like animals, let them reap the consequences. And these consequences, sadly, can act as the deterrence to other sex pests who were probably not thinking about how predatory their behaviour is, and now have to take a little break before jumping down on women.

I'm happy to be part of a serious and deep conversation on social media applications of mob justice, but I'd appreciate if it weren't aiming to make men's lives easier when they prey on women, using their status to boot.

Honestly, I might be being overly dismissive of the situation women face here. I'm trying not to be, but this is me working out how I feel about all facets of a situation that's new for me (namely severe punishments for transgressing code of social behaviour in a way that the law won't handle), and it's quite possible I'm not weighing them right.

I was trying to cover all the allegations - Cole, Sykes, Krueger, etc.etc. - and trying to work my way towards an idea for what I think. Also, at this point, I'm less about how mob justice should work and more about how the publishing industry should be reacting. But I'm definitely addressing Sykes, as he's the guy Nestat was talking about, and he's the guy who so far has gone unpunished.

Is Cole being dropped the right thing when he's done it, apologised, then gone and done it again? Certainly I'm crying no tears for him. And it's not unreasonable that a repeat offender should face harsher measures than others, or that those associated with him might conclude he's beyond their ability to reform. Although have Angry Robot or his agent tried? Are either interested in making some form of restitution to those affected?

But what about Sykes who, to the best of my knowledge, has done roughly the same things as Cole only he's only been called out once? And what about Sykes vs Krueger - one dropped, one not? Tbh, I'm still not sure what Krueger even did. But there is one very obvious difference in that in Sykes is right and Krueger is part-Filipino. Has Sykes got off lightly - or is Krueger the victim of potentially racially driven injustice? Or both?

And speaking of the racial element - the most recent example I'm aware of where somebody went viral being racist is that woman calling the cops on the birder in NY, and the birder himself said afterwards he wasn't sure that was the right thing to happen. I'm with him. I'm not sure. So I'd also be unsure if an author was being racist.

And in general, I am unsure about what is the best approach for combating misogyny, racism, and so on. Maybe it'd feel different if I was on the receiving end but then again, that birder didn't either.

edit: I would point out though that banning these guys from cons, at least for a period and maybe longer, does more to make it harder for Cole/Sykes/whoever to abuse women than any amount of publisher statements or droppings.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 12:51:28 PM by Peat »
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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2020, 01:28:59 PM »
I've followed this discussion with much interest, you all seem to write the "right things" better than I can.

I just wanted to say that I agree only partially with this:
edit: I would point out though that banning these guys from cons, at least for a period and maybe longer, does more to make it harder for Cole/Sykes/whoever to abuse women than any amount of publisher statements or droppings.
But also maybe the "being dropped by publishers" (and I would add bookshops!) could be for a limited period.

This to avoid the "all or nothing" punishment attitude that I feel is too radical, I mean, even criminals have limited sentences in prison, shorter or longer.

Can the authors survive without cons? Of course, only a very limited % of sales result from those events.
Would it be harder if the publishers stopped advertising and if bookshops stopped stocking their books? Much harder.

In a way we're not saying "eliminate the occasion for harm", as I feel it removes their responsibility (if you don't do things just because there's not the opportunity, it's hardly an indicator you're a good person), rather "hit them where it hurts" (in the wallet/sales).
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Offline Peat

Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2020, 03:01:49 PM »
I've followed this discussion with much interest, you all seem to write the "right things" better than I can.

I just wanted to say that I agree only partially with this:
edit: I would point out though that banning these guys from cons, at least for a period and maybe longer, does more to make it harder for Cole/Sykes/whoever to abuse women than any amount of publisher statements or droppings.
But also maybe the "being dropped by publishers" (and I would add bookshops!) could be for a limited period.

This to avoid the "all or nothing" punishment attitude that I feel is too radical, I mean, even criminals have limited sentences in prison, shorter or longer.

Can the authors survive without cons? Of course, only a very limited % of sales result from those events.
Would it be harder if the publishers stopped advertising and if bookshops stopped stocking their books? Much harder.

In a way we're not saying "eliminate the occasion for harm", as I feel it removes their responsibility (if you don't do things just because there's not the opportunity, it's hardly an indicator you're a good person), rather "hit them where it hurts" (in the wallet/sales).

In terms of punishment/revenge/deterrence then yeah, that'd be more effective. And maybe in terms of the overall picture, maybe it's a better idea. But I was making that point solely in terms of whether it makes it easier for authors to prey on women - although I suspect I misread that sentence of Nora's on second reading - and eliminating the chance for harm.

Although I do think that should be the main thing here. Somewhere, there's probably an aspiring female genius who's thinking about going to cons to make contacts that'll allow her to display that genius, but who's currently put off by all the stories. Allowing that person to flourish should be the priority.

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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2020, 03:12:30 PM »
Got it, thanks
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Offline Nestat

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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2020, 03:50:05 PM »
What would be a fair and appropriate reaction in your eyes?

(1) Acknowledge they are aware of the claims.
(2) Investigation.
(3) Public statement, including a summary of the investigation; their policy on discrimination and abuse, and how they're acting on the policy based on their findings.
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Offline Peat

Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2020, 04:53:32 PM »
What would be a fair and appropriate reaction in your eyes?

(1) Acknowledge they are aware of the claims.
(2) Investigation.
(3) Public statement, including a summary of the investigation; their policy on discrimination and abuse, and how they're acting on the policy based on their findings.

Makes sense to me.

Is there an independent body suitable for doing the investigation? I ask both because it's not really a publisher's strong point, and an independent investigation makes more sense anyway.
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Offline Nestat

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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2020, 08:57:33 PM »
I don't think so, at least at the moment. In the short term, internal investigation are fine, as long as organisations are transparent about the process.

Ideally, we'd have a centralised reporting platform, like Callisto or TalktoSpot. These platforms report when multiple, independent allegations are made against one indivudual. Anyone harassed anywhere in the industry - in a publishing house, a bookshop, or at an event - can be directed to the platform.

An external trade body like the Publishers' Association or the Booksellers' Association could handle allegations the platform reports. They should also produce a framework for dealing with harassment and abuse - with categories based on the type of harassment and number of individuals reported.

They pass allegations on to a specific, named representative at an organisation's HR or legal team, who is  trained to investigate assault and harassment. This agent investigates and reports. The organisation takes action, issues a public statement and reports back to the PA/BA.

The PA/BA can then maintain an public, anonymised index of what's happening. Then we know how many reports are made, how severe they are, how many are acted on, how many are deemed false, what action is taken.

In Europe, there may be some implications for GDPR and your right to access your data. But as the UK's Bar Council now have a system to anonymously report harassment among barristers, I'm assuming any GDPR issues are surmountable.
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Offline Nora

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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2020, 04:41:59 PM »
Peat you have to acknowledge that this birder definitely called her out and was criticising how virulent and hateful the twitter mob was in response. I doubt he was trying to make the point that a rabid racist calling the cops on him over a conversation about leashing her dog should go entirely unpunished.
he's also but one man. If you want to get a better viewpoint of what people of colour think about appropriate reactions to racism, there are many books or articles I could direct you to. A great one to start with in general would be Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race by Reni Eddo Lodge.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race/reni-eddo-lodge/9781408870587

Though it's very UK centric, and there are many more books in a similar vein in the US, it's certainly open your eyes on many topics.


Now regarding men behaving like pigs... I don't even know where to start and what to say anymore. It happens all over the place and with SO little repercussions. I mean at my work (as a bookseller) the previous top branch manager was under investigation for sexually harassing several male employees. He wrote himself off as sick leave and stayed home being paid until he was let go of.
A colleague of mine, male, told me when we were alone in the back of house that workers should work extra hours FOR FREE, while I was arguing that it's illegal and a terrible habit to give management. He said that people should "play the game" and somehow, somehow, managed to go and say "It's like women getting raped for wearing short skirts. You got to adapt to your environment and play the game. Don't wear skimpy clothes if you're gonna be out at night"
And I can't even begin to explain how wrong that is, as a premise (you can look up statistics, or this disturbing exhibition : https://www.boredpanda.com/what-were-you-wearing-sexual-assault-art-exhibition ), and as a thing to tell me in the middle of a conversation advocating illegal behaviours.
When I complained to management and HR, HR who is a WOMAN, decided that the incident would only be written as a note in his dossier, because it was only, AND I QUOTE : "An unfortunate choice of word".
My manager looked all sheepish relaying this. Particularly when I pointed out that it was closer to an unfortunate series of entire sentences strung together in an unfortunate argument.
Guess who just got promoted to manager of an entire branch of my company?

So yeah, what exactly do you want me to hope for in the publishing industry? I doubt that publishing houses are by default feminist havens where women don't suffer from their colleagues or their bosses.

We have law makers. They're the ones who should be coming up with suitable responses for such situations. But the entire system is widely rigged against women and in favour of apologising toxic male behaviour. Spend some time on r/TwoXChromosomes if you want to read daily depressing accounts of women struggling with sexual harassment at work and elsewhere. (Though there are lots of positive posts too, if you're curious about female perspective, I strongly recommend it).

I think we end up with mob justice because it's often the only form of justice coming their way. And so many women are just so effing tired of this constant stream of bull we get from everywhere. People recounting experiences online, public scandals, our friends, our own experiences... No wonder people lash out. Social justice doesn't come to you on a platter, you have to fight for it. People pressuring publishers into dropping toxic sexual abusers is part of that social push, and I have no sad feelings for the men who get thrown out of their favourite careers for being toxic as grown ass adults.
Yes being an author is special and we gain by them as they gain by us. It's absolutely not special enough to excuse them preying on women through their influence and access to fans and junior writers. If they are going to behave in such a reprehensible way, a way any person with normal moral understanding KNOWS is wrong, then fuck them. They aren't 13 years old, they're 30+, they know how to use the internet and see what happens to others who do the same. If they want to stake their careers to tell a teen they'd like to pee in their face, then let them gamble. They'll lose it all and you'll not find me giving them any second chances.
If someone wants a damn third chance, I better see him go out and campaign actively in the other direction, and prove that he's deeply understood what was so wrong and that he's truly worked on himself.
It certainly can be done. There was a rapist who was doing tours with his damn victim, the two of them working together to do talks about all the circumstances you can imagine and how to work to better yourself the way he managed to.
Apologies are super easy. You can copy paste one from the internet. it is not proof in any way shape or form that the person understands what they did was wrong and even less that they'll work on the impulses and attitudes that led them there. So yeah, thanks for saving face with an apology, it's the bare minimum you can't socially survive without.
I don't think an apology should be anough for someone who has comited multiple acts of predation on women. OF COURSE such reports should be serious and corroborated, but in some cases, like Coles, even males friends were warning (some) female friends about him so please, spare us...

I don't man, I'm not advocating for punishments in particular, because I'm not a law or policy maker, but I wish there would be some all encompassing policy for us to rely on, and even better, a world where women are taken seriously about these issues. MeToo didn't happen to poop on men's day for fun. We have a deeply rotten system with systemic racism and sexism deeply engrained, and working the kinks out might well take burning the whole cloth.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2020, 10:39:18 AM »
I will try to keep it short. I will not work alone with a woman or out of sight of others at work my interaction with women is minimal. This is for my protection and the protection of my job. As a man I can assure you my word at nearly every job I have worked would have been given less weight than that of any woman making an accusation. Why would I put myself in that position?

Oh and BTW I have also experienced sexual harassment at work from both a woman and men. My female manager and 15 years my senior (I was 23) told me "she only hired me to fuck me" There had been a lot of inappropriate touching prior to that So I wasn't actually surprised and had been looking for another job. A guy senior to me would get handsey ever time we had to travel by car. I took it to my boss who said it was my word against his and I needed to be careful before slandering a married man. I refused to work with him and took it further and was out of a job by the end of the week. Another guy made suggestive comments and I told him I wasn't interested. He spread it round the business that we were having an affair. I was living with someone and some kind soul phoned her up to let her know. I did actually go to HR over that and was offered relationship counciling at the firm expense and an apology.

Two years ago I was accused of racism by someone who had just started  contracting at the company. While this was patently untrue it led to a formal investigation and is now on my permanent work record. Probably the reason I am still in the job is word got out and a number of people said this was not the case. Despicable behaviour from a despicable person who was looking to further themselves at my expense.

@Nora mob justice is not justice in any way shape or form. If someone has broken company rules report them to HR. If they have broken the law go to the police. I understand your experience was not good but did you refuse to sign off on their course of action? Did you try and take it further or did you accept it?

Offline Nora

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Re: Abusive Behaviour in the Fantasy Community
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2020, 02:29:58 PM »

@Nora mob justice is not justice in any way shape or form. If someone has broken company rules report them to HR. If they have broken the law go to the police. I understand your experience was not good but did you refuse to sign off on their course of action? Did you try and take it further or did you accept it?

My experience has nothing to do with mob justice. I wasn't asked to sign anything. The company brushed it off, gave the guy the opportunity to do a moppy, tears overfilling excuse, and that was it. What do you want me to do? They wouldn't accept further anything, it's swept under the rug.

And this entire thread isn't so much about just men being pigs in the work place, as being people in general being pigs through their fanbase or to their fan base and "colleagues". Victims can be anyone, though numbers definitely show it's usually men harassing women in the workplace, any other combination of course exists and is just as valid.
The issue is that reporting to HR often yields nothing and reporting to police is a great way to lose your job. It remains a rampant issue in the workplace, that's no secret.
But authors, and this is who it is about, have no real workplace and yet still wield a measure of power and influence over some people and often get to meet said people in spaces not designed for safety (like during cons, at bars, small venues etc).
What we do about them has to do with what the publisher decides to do too, since they are the boss, they are the HR, and mass protests on twitter and the like are the only way we get to complain to that HR. The justice bit comes when the publisher decides on an appropriate response of punishment for the people thus reported.
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