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Author Topic: The Painted Man / The Warded Man  (Read 38098 times)

Offline WizardofWestmarch

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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2011, 07:54:25 AM »
Pretty sure all the daughters were adults, just in too shitty a situation to get away. Part of why Daddy seemed to want them is they were all grow'd up *shudder*
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2011, 08:04:48 AM »
and how about the soldiers raping the young boys who were training to be soldiers? Just to teach them their place, like. 
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Offline WizardofWestmarch

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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2011, 08:07:26 AM »
True that was creepy.

"Bend over and take it boy"

The part that made that weird/creepy is it really was PURELY about subjugation, soldiers get all the free lovin' they want. Mind you due to the relationship of those two characters it didn't surprise me at all since such things happening had been referenced before. Perhaps that was why it didn't shock me so much, I had been expecting it to happen, and it was only a question of when, not if.
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2011, 08:08:56 AM »
Well made a thread about 'the most disturbing' writer on the general discussion page!

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Offline Overlord

Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2011, 12:24:28 PM »
You said they all consent! and basically raping a 14 year old is in the same league to me :P

I think it is pretty much said that Dany was raped by her brother... that's very, very close to the Brett story-line.
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Offline pornokitsch

Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2011, 01:56:14 PM »
You could argue that guys like Martin do a similar thing... Brett certainly isn't the first person to write females in the manner that he does... I didn't actually find Brett's work all that disturbing in all honesty. Some of the incest themes in GoT are far, far worse for me.

I think GRRM is an interesting case - just arguing this over at the blog with a Rothfuss fan as well. GRRM uses his more disturbing sex to highlight other disturbing things. The Lannisters ARE creepy and wrong. Daenerys IS being prostituted by her brother (he's the villain there). The (frankly horrible) sex backs up the point he's trying to make.

I don't think that the creepy sex in Brett adds the same value and I think the story would be the same (better, even) without it. I also think that Brett's baseline "non-creepy" treatment of women is pretty awful. Womb womb womb slave-girls-in-threesome womb womb womb mud-sex womb womb. Martin, much less so. Martin also has the bonus points of having female protagonists that aren't the party cleric and/or love interest.

[edited to add: I AM SUCH A GRUMP. Sorry!]
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 02:01:48 PM by pornokitsch »

Offline Nighteyes

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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2011, 05:35:16 PM »
Martin has far better female characters than Brett I have to say. When Leesha considered forgiving Marick after everything I nearly threw the book across the room. Or how about when she speculates her mother does speak some wisdom sometimes?And how comes Gared gets condemned so badly. He told some nasty lies as a teenager but he never forces himself on anyone. I m enjoying the read but some dubious politics here and its way more disturbing than Martin. 
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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2011, 08:04:20 PM »
Finished The Desert Spear. And yes, its the better book. Actually how Brett is building The Demon Cycle is not too disimilar to how Jordan built Wheel of Time. Plus they both had odd politics and some characters you just wanna throttle. Though Brett is def way darker than Jordan!and hopefully he keeps his saga under control!
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Offline Minesril

Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2011, 09:05:04 AM »
I think Martin uses sex very well.  Even though his books seem to feature it every chapter or so, it always makes sense.  There's a scene in 'Clash of Kings' which describes a gang rape scene in such explicit, horrifying detail that I actually feel a bit sick every time I read it.  Is it necessary?  Absolutely, yes.  Not just as a way to make the reader hate Gregor Clegane even more, but also, to give Arya motivation to make a choice that is not entirely sensible.

Brett however does not use sex well, ever.  He has not one, but TWO instances of women throwing themselves at the first man she sees after being raped.  In one case, a gang rape, and the other, by her father.  This is an absolutely shocking representation of women.  Does he know us?  At all?

And then we've got that god-awful scene where Mary-Sue has to 'examine' someone to ascertain whether she's a virgin.  Not only is this completely wrong (there is no way to tell), it also stinks of simply being a bit of titillating girl-on-girl moment for the fan BOYS.

Someone mentioned that since he's writing a medieval society, the treatment of women is OK.  I don't agree with this.  Since when does a fantasy society have to represent a medieval one?  It's not our world.  It's a made-up world where societal values can be whatever the writer wants.  This doesn't have to be a world where women are second class citizens and the darker-skinned desert dwellers have to be fundamentalists.

In fact, I would argue that Brett has given every indication that this ISN'T a medieval world.  It's a world which was once very advanced (perhaps around the Industrial Age) but has fallen back into the dark ages due to the limitations posed by the demons.

His treatment of women and Muslims is so bad, that I would probably have stopped reading about halfway through the first book, were he not such a damn good world builder.  And pretty good at writing male characters.

Offline Nighteyes

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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2011, 10:01:42 AM »
Overall I would agree with Minesril's Point - the treatment of women and the fundamentalist side of the Kirisians made me very uncomfortable.

and the medieval point before was simply stating the other side of the argument - but good point that Demon Cycle is set in a post apocalyptical world not a medieval one.

But why were women so downtrodden in medieval societies?  because it was important to produce as many kids as possible due to high mortality rates, and because more often than not - they were weaker than men - and fighting and labour were down through brute force not through machinery like in a more modern world.  Not saying its right, but saying it was the case.  If you are writing a fantasy set in world with similar conditions - surely making the women equal to the men would be untrue to the world you have created?  Though for sure Brett has gone way over board on this!
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Offline Minesril

Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2011, 10:47:53 AM »
But why were women so downtrodden in medieval societies?  because it was important to produce as many kids as possible due to high mortality rates

But does it not take two to make children?  This is a feature of Ancient Spartan society, which is certainly the most 'equal' of the ancient societies in that men and women were treated much the same: childbirth is the ultimate goal for the society, and everything you do should reflect that.  True, women did not fight in the wars, but in other aspects of society they shared much the same 'rights'.

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Offline Francis Knight

Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2011, 06:24:39 PM »

Brett however does not use sex well, ever.  He has not one, but TWO instances of women throwing themselves at the first man she sees after being raped.  In one case, a gang rape, and the other, by her father.  This is an absolutely shocking representation of women.  Does he know us?  At all?

Oh thank the gods, I thought I was the only one! lol. Worse, not only does one run to the nearest man after losing her virginity to gang rape, given the choice of 'nice gentle friend' and 'scary stranger she thought of not five minutes ago as a murdering monster' she picks the second..

I could have absolutely bought this, if the motivations had been clear on the page, but all we really got was because she was 'wet' for him. Um two days after being 'brutally' gang raped? She's still going to have bruises etc. Doesn't compute in any real way.

Like I say, IF the motivations had been clear on the page, and consistent with the character, rather than at ninety degrees to it, I could have bought it (or as an acquaintance said: a good writer could make me believe she sprouted horns and flew to the moon.). Instead it was a real WTF!!??!! for me.
Quote
Someone mentioned that since he's writing a medieval society, the treatment of women is OK.  I don't agree with this.  Since when does a fantasy society have to represent a medieval one?  It's not our world.  It's a made-up world where societal values can be whatever the writer wants.  This doesn't have to be a world where women are second class citizens and the darker-skinned desert dwellers have to be fundamentalists.

True. I'm not against patriarchal societies as such, but in response to this
Quote

But why were women so downtrodden in medieval societies?  because it was important to produce as many kids as possible due to high mortality rates,

If women are valuable (even just as brood mares) they would be treated as such, no? If you research into say Saxon and Norse cultures, you'll find that actually women had quite a lot of rights and say in their lives - to an extent at least. They weren't the lowest of the low, and in some mediaeval cultures were highly valued, even if not allowed much freedom (mainly due to husbands wanting to be sure they were the father of any children!). The thought that women were totally downtrodden is rather over used an not entirely true. Depends which culture/era you go for, obviously, because some were worse than others. And women have always been capable of murdering a man in his sleep :D
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I would probably have stopped reading about halfway through the first book, were he not such a damn good world builder.  And pretty good at writing male characters.

I thought it was okay, not to bad up to the WTF moment above. I (correctly) guessed the ending by the end of the first chapter, but I found it rather pedestrian in many respects. If we take out the weirdness re women, it's a solid, not outstanding, not totally awful tale. I actually thought the characterisation was one of the worse features - inconsistent often.

I don't know, it just didn't grab me, even before the flaws became apparent.
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2011, 06:45:44 PM »
Good post there! Also, please realise that with my comments over medieval society, I was simply being devil's advocate, and if anything the disturbing treatment of woman gets even worse in the second volume. The terrible slutty mother bizarrely gets a bigger role to play and Brett actually tries to get the reader to sympathise with her, and a seriously disturbing plot involving a father repeatedly raping his daughters. The demon concept is nice, and its def a real page turner, but Brett does come across as a writer with some weird attitudes towards women and islam, which he has allowed to get into his writing unchecked.   
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Offline missoularedhead

Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2011, 08:31:03 AM »
See, I gotta be honest...while it was good, it jumped a bit...

Spoiler for Hiden:
Arlen goes from getting his butt kicked in the dessert to a gravelly, tattooed loner in the turn of a page...WTF?  I didn't buy it at all
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Offline Overlord

Re: The Painted Man / The Warded Man
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2011, 08:46:11 AM »
Currently interviewing Mr Peter V. Brett and everything people have said was an issue; the disturbing nature of some events, the lack of women, etc, etc has been discussed - so look out for that in the near future :)
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