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Author Topic: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread  (Read 19707 times)

Offline Eclipse

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2017, 02:17:54 PM »
I'm offended by that unscrupulous allegation sir ,I hope you have not mistaken me for a Frenchman. I have you know sir that I am a gentleman of honour and integrity I wouldn't  sink so low by Jove! I get my man servant to do it instead my good Lanko.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 02:22:09 PM by Eclipse »
According to some,* heroic deaths are admirable things

* Generally those who don't have to do it.Politicians and writers spring to mind

Jonathan Stroud:Ptolmy's Gate

Offline Lanko

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2017, 02:27:27 PM »
I'm offended by that unscrupulous allegation sir ,I hope you have not mistaken me for a Frenchman. I have you know sir that I am a gentleman of honour and integrity I wouldn't  sink so low by Jove! I get my man servant to do it instead my good Lanko.

With your avatar pic it's hard not to mistake you for a Frenchman  ::)
Slow and steady wins the race.

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Offline Eclipse

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2017, 02:38:38 PM »
That's a scandalous thing to say about an English gentleman. It is a good job I I'm of a kindly nature and willing to let this matter to go if you do the honourable thing and apologise .for you to have mistaken me as a Frenchman is frankly sickening otherwise I will have no option but for my man servant Robert to hunt you down and flog you. It be a terrible shame for all of us.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 02:40:11 PM by Eclipse »
According to some,* heroic deaths are admirable things

* Generally those who don't have to do it.Politicians and writers spring to mind

Jonathan Stroud:Ptolmy's Gate

Offline Lanko

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2017, 02:49:19 PM »
I Googled "English wig" and "Frenchman wig".

Those wigs seemed to be used in England on Parliament and they're fake.

Spoiler for Hiden:

And the French nobility/famous seemed to use it daily?

Spoiler for Hiden:

Spoiler for Hiden:

Spoiler for Hiden:

Spoiler for Hiden:

Anyway, maybe the whole thing was invented by the English and maybe I'm totally wrong with this 5 minute research! But it's the French who have the fame for modeling fashion!

So Frenchman it is! (evil laughter at Eclipse's distress!)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 02:51:49 PM by Lanko »
Slow and steady wins the race.

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Offline Nora

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2017, 04:10:58 PM »
I'm offended by that unscrupulous allegation sir ,I hope you have not mistaken me for a Frenchman. I have you know sir that I am a gentleman of honour and integrity I wouldn't  sink so low by Jove! I get my man servant to do it instead my good Lanko.

I hope you try some frog legs for cultural diversity's sake and choke on them you Briton!  ;D
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2017, 04:59:36 PM »
@Lanko, I've been thinking about the "distinctly inhuman psychology or perspective" requirement for a while now.
I run along these paths:

...A being can be different from humans physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, magically, spiritually, (and other -lys)
...One or more of these "at strength" should result in something inhuman in psychology or perspective
...But you and I are humans trying to write this. All we can do is create an illusion of difference through contrast

I started one story in which the "beast" MC has a different living imperative. In humans, these imperatives might be listed as to survive, to procreate, to enjoy, to create. (A sort of Maslow's hierarchy.) So what if a being's imperative was to create art, and all else is secondary at an instinctive level? If humans interfered with the art, wheat then?

Or in the case of a true "beast" as we would think of one, the only priorities are survival, sex, and comfort. Humans might threaten this, so inhuman perspective calls for the humans to be killed.

I started another story in which certain physical senses are far more sensitive than in humans, but others less so. I think sharks and electrical fields/motion, whales and water salinity/pressure/temperature, wolves, etc. and smell.

The list of difference through contrast can go on forever. But the point, of course, is that the difference creates "inhuman" perspective. For this to be more than warmed-over anthropomorphism, the difference should lead to a variety of thought, behavior, and emotion that a normal human wouldn't exhibit.

I've an idea I'm noodling. The third idea, as my earlier post said. Physical, magical, spiritual, mental differences all run amok. I'm getting a little jazzed about it.

Offline Nora

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2017, 05:45:10 PM »
If humans interfered with the art, wheat then?

Human hot buns. Organ bread. Man flesh rolls.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline Lanko

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2017, 06:09:36 PM »
I started one story in which the "beast" MC has a different living imperative. In humans, these imperatives might be listed as to survive, to procreate, to enjoy, to create. (A sort of Maslow's hierarchy.) So what if a being's imperative was to create art, and all else is secondary at an instinctive level? If humans interfered with the art, wheat then?

Curiously, I did think of Maslow's pyramid... then realized it was designed to portray the needs of humans. Yes, we only need to make an illusion, but the illusion is not being strong enough...

About your example, I also thought of some kind of imperative or even obsession. That made me think about other problems with this approach:

1)If a being or species has an imperative with something, it could just lead to stereotypes in the likes of "the imperative of elves is to preserve and live with nature" or "dwarfs only care about booze and gold".

2)On an individual level, an obsession or imperative seems the most likely angle of approach.
But I guess that also can create an entire new batch of problems. It could just be a very strange hobby, like collecting something or some mental disorder in how to do things or to repeat things.
In the case of serial killers, we might wonder why they did such things, but trained professionals are often able to tell why and trace the roots of their behavior. So in this case psychological trauma turning into sociopathic behavior is a mental illness, and mental illness =/= inhuman, alien perspective. It could even be offensive to some to consider it as such.

BUT, now that I think about it (and with the help of that picture and the title "Beast's Eye") I'm now wondering if I'm reading the theme proposal and thinking about the inhuman perspective only in the form of a monster or alien creature when it can be someone too strange to think or relate in daily life...

@xiagan Would a character like Jorg Ancrath (if we didn't have his flashbacks to explain his life and why he does the things he does) qualify?

Or indeed it needs to be some form of creature?

Or in the case of a true "beast" as we would think of one, the only priorities are survival, sex, and comfort. Humans might threaten this, so inhuman perspective calls for the humans to be killed.

The list of difference through contrast can go on forever. But the point, of course, is that the difference creates "inhuman" perspective. For this to be more than warmed-over anthropomorphism, the difference should lead to a variety of thought, behavior, and emotion that a normal human wouldn't exhibit.

But survival, sex and comfort are totally comprehensible reasons for us, no matter how bizarrely their diet is or how they mate, specially if we're seeing those reasons through the beast's POV.

I think behavior is gonna be the key. Thought may get us too close. And what emotion could we invent that a normal human has never even heard of before? Even if a normal person wouldn't exhibit it, we would still know it, thus wouldn't be alien.

Or maybe I'm overthinking things...
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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2017, 06:18:07 PM »
Something completely inhuman that you invent would be... entertaining. And we'd call the men in little white suits.  ;D

But come on, a dog is inhuman. We can understand the dog's motivations. I think it's entirely in bounds to see through the eyes of a beast simply bent on sex or survival - preferably both. The senses would be different. The perceptions of the world would be different. All of that would have to be expressed in language that makes sense.

"The cub shied away from the Alpha, then rolled on its back, urine puddling the matted leaves."

Or,

"X!jukickt submitted itself to scanning from the Leader, the feeling sending its snails scurrying for better protection deeper beneath his skin."



Offline Lanko

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2017, 06:26:49 PM »
Yeah... even Lovecraft wasn't crazy enough to write through Cthulhu's perspective  ::)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 06:29:58 PM by Lanko »
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Offline Nora

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2017, 07:32:15 PM »
Whoa @Lanko, you're making your life so much more complicated than need be.

Yes you can write from the pov of a human, xia said in the description that a serial killer counts. We spend so much time after all try to find out what goes on "in their heads", and their lawyers spend equal amounts of time trying to remind the crowds/jury, that they are men, not monsters, and if we call them monsters then we must live with the implications, etc.

So many books tackled "alien" creatures points of view! Have you not read Ancillary Justice? Or the Hell Boy comics, or the Watchmen, or interview with the Vampire? Or any Anne Rice book, and any book featuring intelligent dragons, or some chapters of A Long Way, or The Girl With All the Gifts?
There are far more than just Elves and Dwarves and you're in no way more at risk of falling into cliche than if you wrote a love story or an orphan prophecy story, and of course you could write a completely compelling story involving a beer drinking miner Dwarf.
Up to you and your writing.

It looks like you're trying to bring yourself down and pull the Overcomplicated rug over you.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline xiagan

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2017, 08:21:37 PM »
@Lanko, if you manage to pull off a story that meets your high expectations and overthinking - wow!

I think Anonymous and Nora are on the right path, don't overcomplicate things (if they slow you down, otherwise go for it).

I'm not sure I can think Jorg without the Flashbacks and without his history...
A human being that has absolutely no fear and doesn't care how their actions affect themselves would count, imho.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 08:42:54 PM by xiagan »
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline Lanko

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2017, 08:35:37 PM »
Haha, yeah, when I saw the theme the thing that got stuck in my mind all this time was Lovecraft's mythos. Through their POV.

No wonder I'm struggling  ::)

But thanks all, that cleared things that I didn't need to go to such insane levels of inhumanity  ::)

Slow and steady wins the race.

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Offline LightRunner

Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2017, 09:16:33 PM »
@Lanko

I think I had the same troubles that you're talking about with this theme. One thing that helped me start to actually generate a story was to try to define for myself what a human psychology would be.

For some reason, my initial thoughts led me down a rabbit hole where my ideas of an inhuman POV resulted in multiple selves. Once I recognized that there is a difference between a self / consciousness / individual being and a human, I was able to get past the initial desire to have an inhuman psychology be completely foreign (which is a seemingly impossible task).

So, then I defined a self / consciousness / individual and figured out which variations of those defining characteristics led to a human psychology. To get an inhuman psychology, you pick different variations of those attributes.

I don't know if that's at all helpful, but it seems to be working for me.

Offline Nora

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Re: [Mar 2017] - Through the Beast's Eye - Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2017, 03:14:23 AM »
You guys are giving so much hard thoughts to all this... Damn. I'm struggling to pick between two types of monsters and first or third person, and I didn't stop to think about what defined human nature at all.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty